2012 Camaro Z28 spotted and confirmed w/ 6.2L SC V8
07-28-2010 | 09:00 AM
#61
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
Your points are well-taken.
I always liken this site to the 4th Gen's haven. If I'm not mistaken, it was created and gained steam right around the time the LS1 cars were released. 3rd Gen guys who had some problems with the 4th Gen weren't seen around here as much (Charlie notwithstanding
). And so the cycle continues.
The 5th Gen's biggest success so far has been in bringing new people into the fold. It has helped to break some nagging stereotypes about the car. And it is more visible now to the general public than at any time I can remember.
There's nothing wrong with being a "fanboy". Let's face it, without them NONE of these cars (Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, etc.) would exist. But again, there's a difference between being a fanboy to the point of where you accept anything and everything about a car from styling to engines to handling to size and weight, and those who have a passion for a more focused and targeted vision of what Camaro should be. Frankly, I would prefer to discuss Camaro on a site that acknowledges its strengths and weaknesses as opposed to a site that practically bans you if you don't tow the "party line" and don't care about the sick new chrome tire caps you put on your 20's.
If those within Chevy decide to look solely at Camaro5 for input and direction with regard to Camaro's future, well, that's their right. But I think they'd be doing themselves and the Camaro brand a big disservice. When you're told that everything you propose is spot-on perfect, how can we expect to get a leg up on the competition? I have not seen a Mustang site operate that way.....
I always liken this site to the 4th Gen's haven. If I'm not mistaken, it was created and gained steam right around the time the LS1 cars were released. 3rd Gen guys who had some problems with the 4th Gen weren't seen around here as much (Charlie notwithstanding
). And so the cycle continues.The 5th Gen's biggest success so far has been in bringing new people into the fold. It has helped to break some nagging stereotypes about the car. And it is more visible now to the general public than at any time I can remember.
There's nothing wrong with being a "fanboy". Let's face it, without them NONE of these cars (Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, etc.) would exist. But again, there's a difference between being a fanboy to the point of where you accept anything and everything about a car from styling to engines to handling to size and weight, and those who have a passion for a more focused and targeted vision of what Camaro should be. Frankly, I would prefer to discuss Camaro on a site that acknowledges its strengths and weaknesses as opposed to a site that practically bans you if you don't tow the "party line" and don't care about the sick new chrome tire caps you put on your 20's.
If those within Chevy decide to look solely at Camaro5 for input and direction with regard to Camaro's future, well, that's their right. But I think they'd be doing themselves and the Camaro brand a big disservice. When you're told that everything you propose is spot-on perfect, how can we expect to get a leg up on the competition? I have not seen a Mustang site operate that way.....
07-28-2010 | 09:37 AM
#62
Admin Emeritus
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 11,157
From: Nashville, TN area
All, I think we are both on the same page in some respects, but not even close in others.
First, we always welcome and appreciate constructive criticism. Everyone knows how to get ahold of us to offer their thoughts.
Second, all sites are different for different reasons and different values.
Third, there are a few here who are passionately critical of the Camaro not because they want to tear it down, but because they want it to continue to improve. While I don't always agree with it, I do have to agree that it is necessary in a constructive manner. If we all just gush about how great everything is, then nothing will get improvement and the Camaro will fall behind in every aspect. I will be part of the 3rd Disciples Group meeting next month. Instead of offering critical thoughts geared toward improvement, should I just say "The car is perfect, don't change a single thing"? Of course not. That's not why they chose those who they did to be a part of it. This is not to say that we have a place for blatant bashing of the Camaro (and it will be removed if we see it or some good Samaritan takes a few seconds to let us know about it if we don't), but we do want the car to continue to improve and succeed. You need both positive reinforcement as well as constructive and sometimes painful suggestions of improvement for things to balance out correctly and for things to evolve for the better. (BTW...this also applies to online communities, ironically.) Next time you see any of the Big3 from the Camaro team, ask them and they will certainly back this up. They need that kind of input because they have no way to surface that data without people speaking up with good intentions in mind.
Fourth, and and back to being on topic, the attempted point is that this car is not officially confirmed to be a Z28 by GM or Chevrolet. All signs point to it indeed being the Z28, but saying it is "confirmed" insinuates on an official nature, which it is not and is a bit misleading at the most.
Having said that, can we all please get back to the topic? I am sure the OP would certainly appreciate it.
First, we always welcome and appreciate constructive criticism. Everyone knows how to get ahold of us to offer their thoughts.
Second, all sites are different for different reasons and different values.
Third, there are a few here who are passionately critical of the Camaro not because they want to tear it down, but because they want it to continue to improve. While I don't always agree with it, I do have to agree that it is necessary in a constructive manner. If we all just gush about how great everything is, then nothing will get improvement and the Camaro will fall behind in every aspect. I will be part of the 3rd Disciples Group meeting next month. Instead of offering critical thoughts geared toward improvement, should I just say "The car is perfect, don't change a single thing"? Of course not. That's not why they chose those who they did to be a part of it. This is not to say that we have a place for blatant bashing of the Camaro (and it will be removed if we see it or some good Samaritan takes a few seconds to let us know about it if we don't), but we do want the car to continue to improve and succeed. You need both positive reinforcement as well as constructive and sometimes painful suggestions of improvement for things to balance out correctly and for things to evolve for the better. (BTW...this also applies to online communities, ironically.) Next time you see any of the Big3 from the Camaro team, ask them and they will certainly back this up. They need that kind of input because they have no way to surface that data without people speaking up with good intentions in mind.
Fourth, and and back to being on topic, the attempted point is that this car is not officially confirmed to be a Z28 by GM or Chevrolet. All signs point to it indeed being the Z28, but saying it is "confirmed" insinuates on an official nature, which it is not and is a bit misleading at the most.
Having said that, can we all please get back to the topic? I am sure the OP would certainly appreciate it.
07-28-2010 | 12:13 PM
#63
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Third, there are a few here who are passionately critical of the Camaro not because they want to tear it down, but because they want it to continue to improve. While I don't always agree with it, I do have to agree that it is necessary in a constructive manner. If we all just gush about how great everything is, then nothing will get improvement and the Camaro will fall behind in every aspect. I will be part of the 3rd Disciples Group meeting next month. Instead of offering critical thoughts geared toward improvement, should I just say "The car is perfect, don't change a single thing"? Of course not. That's not why they chose those who they did to be a part of it. This is not to say that we have a place for blatant bashing of the Camaro (and it will be removed if we see it or some good Samaritan takes a few seconds to let us know about it if we don't), but we do want the car to continue to improve and succeed. You need both positive reinforcement as well as constructive and sometimes painful suggestions of improvement for things to balance out correctly and for things to evolve for the better. (BTW...this also applies to online communities, ironically.)
Glad to hear that Jason. I happen to personally know and respect afew from the group. I know you guys aren't going there to be a mere PR rubber stamp, but I also hope you're not afraid to really put the boots to them either. And I'll tell you why I say this. Speaking for myself, it's easier to be passionate with an opinion on the internet than it is to eviscerate someone's work when you are staring him or her in the eye. Maybe eviscerate is too strong of a word, but you know what I mean. There were times where I really held back on my opinion while in Detroit during the reveal in 2006, because I genuinely liked the GM person I was talking to, and didn't want them to feel that I was minimizing their work. I should have spoken up about certain things more forcefully. I don't know if it would have made a difference or not, but at least it would have gotten people thinking.
So speak up. The only way the car improves is as you said, constructive criticism. Don't be afraid to give it!
Last edited by Z284ever; 07-28-2010 at 04:33 PM.
07-28-2010 | 12:54 PM
#64
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
My only trouble will be convincing my wife that Camaro needs to be smaller. She's still convinced the current car is smaller than my 4th gen.
07-28-2010 | 01:47 PM
#66
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,497
From: Okemos, MI
07-28-2010 | 02:14 PM
#67
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,808
From: FL/MI
First I would like to apologize to Jason and the OP for continuing the off topic tangent just a small amount.
I have my personal thoughts about individual fan sites. I suppose that corresponds to everyone else that frequents the internet.
It's for damn sure that any site worth visiting has to have passion attached to the discourse. I can't imagine any other reason to bother with setting up or frquenting such sites.
I talk with enthusiasts and intenders far more on a face to face basis than I do through the internet. I suppose most of us would prefer it that way if circumstances allowed that to happen.
This is not a "Why can't we all just get along" request. I figure people of like interest < in this case Camaro > should bring their own version of Utopia with them wherever they go.
I, personally, can't see much community spirit in elitistism toward others that share some degree of interest, some degree of common ground.
Camaro is a personal coupe. It's designed and crafted to appeal to the passionate.
You will find no one that wants to see people have the car of their dreams as much as I do . . . as much as my coworkers do, for that matter.
Telling GM how their offering has disappointed you, and what they can do about it is appreciated. Opinions and dreams get serious review at GM.
Calling folks who share a degree of common enthusiasm "Fan Boys", etc., is harsh... unfounded, and rash.
I respect the right for any to do so. That's not the nature of my admonition.
I only offer that some folks love their new Camaro and are excited to share their passion. It's a presumptive and personal indulgence, IMHO, to feel compelled and righteous to denigrate one person's willingness to share their joy. There's nothing at all questionable in wanting what you want.
Voicing irritation because someone is happy and you are not? It is not the fault of the happy person.
Do keep telling GM what you like and don't like. We are still listening.
My personal opinion is that infighting serves no purpose in this instance. That notwithstanding, do whatever you think is best.
Once again, I apologize to Jason and particularly to the OP for the off topic tangent.
I have my personal thoughts about individual fan sites. I suppose that corresponds to everyone else that frequents the internet.
It's for damn sure that any site worth visiting has to have passion attached to the discourse. I can't imagine any other reason to bother with setting up or frquenting such sites.
I talk with enthusiasts and intenders far more on a face to face basis than I do through the internet. I suppose most of us would prefer it that way if circumstances allowed that to happen.
This is not a "Why can't we all just get along" request. I figure people of like interest < in this case Camaro > should bring their own version of Utopia with them wherever they go.
I, personally, can't see much community spirit in elitistism toward others that share some degree of interest, some degree of common ground.
Camaro is a personal coupe. It's designed and crafted to appeal to the passionate.
You will find no one that wants to see people have the car of their dreams as much as I do . . . as much as my coworkers do, for that matter.
Telling GM how their offering has disappointed you, and what they can do about it is appreciated. Opinions and dreams get serious review at GM.
Calling folks who share a degree of common enthusiasm "Fan Boys", etc., is harsh... unfounded, and rash.
I respect the right for any to do so. That's not the nature of my admonition.
I only offer that some folks love their new Camaro and are excited to share their passion. It's a presumptive and personal indulgence, IMHO, to feel compelled and righteous to denigrate one person's willingness to share their joy. There's nothing at all questionable in wanting what you want.
Voicing irritation because someone is happy and you are not? It is not the fault of the happy person.
Do keep telling GM what you like and don't like. We are still listening.
My personal opinion is that infighting serves no purpose in this instance. That notwithstanding, do whatever you think is best.
Once again, I apologize to Jason and particularly to the OP for the off topic tangent.
Last edited by 1fastdog; 07-28-2010 at 02:27 PM.
07-28-2010 | 09:53 PM
#69
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Lemme assure you, everyone at GM knows it's a pi.. erm, I mean too heavy - whether they publicly admit it or not. Letting them know that we know, is I think, a healthy way to keep their minds properly focused.
07-29-2010 | 04:21 PM
#70
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 681
Inflammatory over-exaggeration = "The Camaro is a huge fat over-bloated pig".
07-29-2010 | 04:36 PM
#71
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
I think we'll need to agree to disagree on that one.
07-29-2010 | 05:39 PM
#72
Admin Emeritus
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 11,157
From: Nashville, TN area
And that is how it needs to be done. I know this is not the first time this has been mentioned but it needs to be the last.
07-30-2010 | 01:56 AM
#73
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,711
From: The Golden State
It's remarkable how times change.
When I joined this site over 12 years ago it had just as much enthusiasm and traffic for the 4th gen as Camaro5 does today regarding the 5th gen. CamaroZ28.com was THE place to go to for anything Camaro related. Over the past few years I came here less and less and generally only to check one particular section (Automotive News/ Industry/ Future Vehicle Discussion) since it was a good source of information concerning GM and it's product lineup.It still is IMO. Occasionally Camaro celebrities like Scott would post also providing us clues, and hope for a new Camaro. Today it seems CamaroZ28.com is the place to come to bash the Camaro. Scott has left, the enthusiasts have left looking at the traffic this site now has and all that's left is the idea that this could be the focal point for all things Camaro to include the GOOD.
The 5th gen is not like the 4th gen just as it was not like the 3rd gen and the 2nd gen and 1st gen... Whether anyone here likes it or not it IS still a Camaro. The car industry has changed a hell of a lot since 1967 so to have the cars Detroit builds and the Camaro GM builds. At least we still have one. Look at Pontiac. For those Pontiac fans out there they will NEVER have another GTO or Trans Am. and yes there are Pontiac fans as passionate about Pontiac's as some of us are about the Camaro. The 5th gen isn't what you like or want in a Camaro. I think many of us here get that, but what you have to realize is that the 5th gen is a success right now and because of the 5th gens success there will likely be a 6th gen! Maybe you will like that car maybe not. But I assure you it will follow in line with the previous 5 generations changing for better or worse depending on who you are with the market and times and hopefully it is the most successful Camaro ever built by GM.
I have a 20 year old daughter that instead of loving Hondas and Toyotas for their reliability and civility like MOST other people her age loves Camaro's. Her first car is an original 3rd Gen RS w/ 305 TBI engine. The dog of late 3rd gen V8's but she will own that car until she passes away enjoying it every chance she has. She also loves my 4th gen for what it is and can't wait for us to buy a 5th gen Z28 to add to our collection. It's people like her that are going to keep Camaro going because she loves each car for what it is and understands that it is built for the most part with the same idea in mind from one generation to the next.
Most of the people here sound like some in the 1st gen crowd that look down on all other Camaro owners because the last real Camaro was built in 69 or 81 or 92. Pick your generation. Why don't one of you create a new website like "I only like (insert generation here) Camaro's", and bash all other Camaros there instead of hijacking what was once the best damn Camaro site on the net.
I realize I have offended many people with this post but i had to get that of my chest. it has been building for years. Mods feel free to delete this or even ban me. I don't know that I will mind so much anymore.
When I joined this site over 12 years ago it had just as much enthusiasm and traffic for the 4th gen as Camaro5 does today regarding the 5th gen. CamaroZ28.com was THE place to go to for anything Camaro related. Over the past few years I came here less and less and generally only to check one particular section (Automotive News/ Industry/ Future Vehicle Discussion) since it was a good source of information concerning GM and it's product lineup.It still is IMO. Occasionally Camaro celebrities like Scott would post also providing us clues, and hope for a new Camaro. Today it seems CamaroZ28.com is the place to come to bash the Camaro. Scott has left, the enthusiasts have left looking at the traffic this site now has and all that's left is the idea that this could be the focal point for all things Camaro to include the GOOD.
The 5th gen is not like the 4th gen just as it was not like the 3rd gen and the 2nd gen and 1st gen... Whether anyone here likes it or not it IS still a Camaro. The car industry has changed a hell of a lot since 1967 so to have the cars Detroit builds and the Camaro GM builds. At least we still have one. Look at Pontiac. For those Pontiac fans out there they will NEVER have another GTO or Trans Am. and yes there are Pontiac fans as passionate about Pontiac's as some of us are about the Camaro. The 5th gen isn't what you like or want in a Camaro. I think many of us here get that, but what you have to realize is that the 5th gen is a success right now and because of the 5th gens success there will likely be a 6th gen! Maybe you will like that car maybe not. But I assure you it will follow in line with the previous 5 generations changing for better or worse depending on who you are with the market and times and hopefully it is the most successful Camaro ever built by GM.
I have a 20 year old daughter that instead of loving Hondas and Toyotas for their reliability and civility like MOST other people her age loves Camaro's. Her first car is an original 3rd Gen RS w/ 305 TBI engine. The dog of late 3rd gen V8's but she will own that car until she passes away enjoying it every chance she has. She also loves my 4th gen for what it is and can't wait for us to buy a 5th gen Z28 to add to our collection. It's people like her that are going to keep Camaro going because she loves each car for what it is and understands that it is built for the most part with the same idea in mind from one generation to the next.
Most of the people here sound like some in the 1st gen crowd that look down on all other Camaro owners because the last real Camaro was built in 69 or 81 or 92. Pick your generation. Why don't one of you create a new website like "I only like (insert generation here) Camaro's", and bash all other Camaros there instead of hijacking what was once the best damn Camaro site on the net.
I realize I have offended many people with this post but i had to get that of my chest. it has been building for years. Mods feel free to delete this or even ban me. I don't know that I will mind so much anymore.
I myself have been coming here for about 11 years (I changed my handle in 2001 or 2002 when I moved to a new station and I couldn't remember my "saved" password after changing computers). To say things have changed not exactly for the better would be a pretty gross understatement.
What drew me to this site at first was simply a mention in Hot Rod magazine back around 99. I was already posting on future vehicle areas of other websites including BlueOvalNews and at least 3 other sites at the time, and was still expanding my rolodex of industry contacts mainly for my own information and things to talk about with my dad or the other people at work who shared intrest in what was coming down the line, what was happening behind the scenes, or what was the history of this or that vehicle's development.
Back then, there were quite a lot of people here who shared the desire for facts, and didn't blink when facts contradicted their opinions or beliefs and focused on facts. That type of dispassionate reporting and fact based opinions has turned pretty much into an endangered species. This has especially turned true the past few years. It seems that one honest broker or formerly respectable source after another lost objectivity (and honestly, any resemblence of common sense and logic). Instead of looking at what's best and what's actually going on, it turned into opinions, dogma, and politics.
In my case, I just got tired of debating morons, and moved on to other things. Sure, that's always the case, but there's better things to do in life and with limited free time for the internet than trying to point out things to some who refuse to be educated.
I still come here because I honestly like the moderators, and there are quite a few people still here I consider friends. But I don't spend as much limited time here as I once did. I'm sure others (including Scott, perhaps) feels much the same way.
I like this site, and to a large degree, I owe a lot to it.
But there's other places where you can talk to those in the industry and share well thought out opinions without having to talk to rocks or rock throwers.
You lose your sanity that way.
07-30-2010 | 03:27 AM
#74
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
GM is going to build the best Z28 or Z/28 for them and they own the right and the name and its purpose. We can sit and criticize it for many things but what we can’t fault the 5th Gen for is bringing back the storied Camaro name to hearts and homes across America. For those that want more there is hopefully the 6th Gen. But know this that there is no 6th Gen without a 5th Gen and any future praise is owed to this ground breaking and popular car.
07-30-2010 | 11:15 AM
#75
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL