Very nice design! Regarding Brangeta red car done for a design project. It actually looks like an evolution of the 4th Gen Camaro. However, I believe that in order for a new F-body to survive, it has to have broad appeal to the base buyer. The 4th Gen car is my second favorite model, because it is fantastic looking and performing, but it is a major pain getting in and out. Remember GM's number one priority is profit. Profit is maximized by selling to the most people. Like it or not, the 1st gen cars are the most practical and people friendly. To mimic the 1st gen is a great idea for the above reason. In todays market, with SUVs, pickups, and Scion "toaster box" cars selling like crazy (well not so much SUVs right now, but thats only due to gas prices), the common theme is a useful practical setup. You gotta have a layout that has good trunk space, seats 4 okay, and is easy to enter, and easy to park. Make it handsome, which the Concept Camaro can be, and put horsepower in it for the car nuts, and it will sell and survive.

 

Or gained depending on your perspective. The shelby origional and concept tail lights only looked good because they were different to me. I actually liked the cluster of three better on each side. The hood vents and side scoops were canned because they werent functional anyway. The previous one had non functional scoops that it caught flak for. I like the 05 Mustang better.

 

This is the attitude that bothers me actually more than anything. People confuse the notions "For as long as Ive been alive, this is all Ive known" with "Camaro's have always been associated with X" The concept didnt "lose" anything. It got back the attitude it lost Generations ago plus what it picked up ques from other gens. Youve made it quite obvious you think anything old is junk with no interest in even considering whether some of the older designs may be better. "Older Crowd"? like the ones who were teens when the 69 was new? Im 29, and the 69, ceased production 7 years before I was even born. I have a 98 and a 69 in my drive way. The 98 has areo dynamics agressive B pillar and T-tops and thats it. The 69 has recessed headlights, shark gills, cowl hood, NASCAR rear spoiler 1/4 windows 747 gear selector, wheel well swooshes, sleek tail lights etc etc, boat loads of attitude that litteraly make my heart race when I see another one on the street. Thats what "it once had" My neighbor is about 19 well after 69 and he thinks the 69 and concept are awesome. The incorporation of the 3rd gen angle/grile to fix the the bumper issue of and open grille is perfect. The concept using the 4th gens B pillar agressive angle for the C pillar gives the side a nice look. and also The angle of the point in the grille is 2nd and 4th gen which I wish they would bring back in a touch.

90% of people in the different polls like this car. I like the debate in the 10% who dont because Im hoping maybe 1 or 2 people will see at least one of the many things I see and get to enjoy it a little too. Also maybe Ill see something in that 98 again before I sell it. I understand the 5% who know the history and know the cars but just see them as old or this as a step back. They perfer the style of 4th gen and want an evolution of that or something totaly new, poor mans vette type. I get that. But ignorant statements like going "going retro loosing what it once had" "That looks nothing like a camaro" or "Camaro always had a hatch or long heavy doors" "If you wanted a useable back seat or a trunk you shouldnt have bought a camaro" because it was the Camaro before you were born and that doesnt count, are astonishing. Expecting those compromises before you even considered it as a new car why do you think people stopped considering it. Whats wrong with people who have families buying this over say a BMW?

It seems like hard core 4th gen fans dont care about back seat, trunk space and just want a poor mans vette. So would you perfer a hard top Sky, Solstice GXP, Chevy V6 Kappa Stingray (Feb M/T), GTO or used Vette?

 

Thank You for pointing this out. I agree.

I'm in the same camp. I thought the Mustang concept looked artificially short, like they were trying to make it into 'Ford's Corvette'. The production version is stretched and looks much more practical and natural.

 

I agree that it has to have a broader appeal but the design shortcommings can be adressed without having to resort to a retro 1st gen. There is a huge area of untapped possiblities that the Camaro could have taken, the concept is just one of them.

I think I have the biggest problem with the line of thinking that this is the only logical choice.

 

prod % ttl prod avg/generation
1st gen 699138 14.42% 233,046
2nd gen 1936869 39.96% 161,406
3rd gen 1529907 31.56% 139,082
4th gen 681092 14.05% 68,109

4847006

I put this together just to see which generation had the best sales numbers. In total sales the 2nd gen was tops, however when you take the average yearly sales of each generation, the 1st gen is easily the highest. This may be one reason why GM used the 1st gen as the starting point for the concept.

Don't get me wrong, I love all the generations of Camaros, I currently own a 1st and 4th, and owned a 2nd gen for several years and plan to own a 5th gen when it is released. I was pretty young when the Camaro first came out, but when I started looking for my first car all I wanted was a 68 Camaro. I bought one 2 weeks after graduating high school and still own the car. I bought the 4th gen 3 years ago and while there is no comparison in ride, fuel mileage, dependability, etc compared to the 68.

My goal is life it to own at least one of each generation. I will have to find that nice 3rd gen after paying for the 5th gen

 

well I guess I'm part of the "older" crowd since I like the first gen Camaro's and the concept (I'm 30 ) IMO, the 4th gen Camaro is probably the worst looking of the bunch, with the possible exception of some of the mid 70's models. The first and third gens are probably the best looking. On that same token, I think the fourth gen T/A's, especially the WS6, are probably one of the best looking Firebirds made, with the possible exception of some of the third gen models and late 2nd gen T/A's. Don't really care for the first gen Firebirds much at all. Does that make me "old" or "yearning for my childhood" (which by the way was filled with large underpowered sedans and severely lackluster performance cars)? I don't think so.

Retro is in right now. Hate the new Mustang all you want, its absolutely destroying the GTO in sales, despite how "nice and comfortable" it might be, or how much faster it might be, or how easy it is to drive, etc. Ford is having to ramp up production to 190,000 units in 2005 to meet demand...The Fourth Gens sold 68,000 per year average (according to the figures quoted above). That tells me right away that GM did not have its "finger on the pulse of America" when they made that car. The complaints that I get from people riding in my car are "I can't get in and out (even in the FRONT seat, the back seat is a waste unless your 4' tall)", "how can you see anything outside that windshield", "your car is longer than my minivan", "I can't see over the dash to park it (from my wife)", "what the hell was that noise in the rear end ( )"...my own complaints are "I can't see spit out of this windshield in the sun because its so angled the dash reflects in it horribly", "why are my windows taking almost a minute to roll down", "when are my headlight motors going to break", "when is my opti going to cost me $1200 (for you LT1ers out there)", "when is my rear end gonna cost me $2000"...you see the problem here.

Ford hit a home run with the Mustang, lets hope the craze holds on long enough for the Camaro to do the same, because if they kill it again I guarantee its not coming back

 

that average is about right. Those numbers are even with gas going under $1 mid 90's It was the utlity of the car as well though. Expecting it not to have any practicality at all because its a Camaro and thats whats now associated with the name kills sales and enthusiasm.

Off topic, I grew to like the GTO once I saw how nice it was and how much it fixes the problems of the 4th gen Camaro's. The style has grown on me where I thought it was bland at first. Its still no 69 Camaro but Id consider a used one with about 20k miles for $21K

 

Not the only soloution. They could have used some lessons learned from Vette and Kappa cars to make an entirely new car. People would probably be 50/50 as to whether GM actually corrected anything or if the new style met the old standards or whether the 1st gen diehards were ignored yet another gen. Theyve reversed alot of engineering mistake that made me stop liking new camaros. They went to the 69 design because most associate it with the best year looking back when GM still listened. And people pay most for today. Kinda bitter sweet that I had to deal with 4th gen problems and of my many complaints one was the headlights turned themselves off one winter while driving home. I got pulled over driving back to work with my parking lights. I count myself lucky now that 4th gen had so many problems that they would consider the design of my favorite year. Its enough to make someone like me consider a camaro again.

 

Chalk up another old timer at the ripe old age of 26
I wouldn't go as far as say the 4th Was the ugliest of the bunch, but I agree that the Camaro, over time, lost it's flavor. It became more and more abstracted from it's original goal. I will admit though, I'm biased because of my '02.

I believe the most beautiful car ever produced was the '68. It had the flare of the '67 and fixed the small issues such as getting rid of the wing windows.

I'm extremely excited to see them "go back to their roots" for the new Camaro. I feel that's the only way it will get the mass apeal needed to pull the type of numbers that would make this car profitable.

 

Do you really think that this 1st/5th gen will appeal, styling wise, to people who don't already like Camaros? Other than "car guys", who knows what a 1st gen lookss like? They are 40 years removed and look the least similar to any other Camaro.

Maybe GM is right with this direction but it seems that this car will still only appeal to Camaro fans and a few Mustang fans. Other than that, I don't see it drawing many buyers from other brands and if they keep that retro interior, then they just shot themselves in the foot big time. I think that this car will now have to rely much more heavily on it's other merits besides it's styling to be successful. Not that it won't keep the Camaro people here with the styling, but to gain conquest sales I think real attention will have to be paid to the quality, interior, material chice, general mechanics and abilities, as well as the price. It can of course be done, so if the final design stays close to the concept, let's hope that it all works.

 

IMHO it did...It used to be a car that looked like pretty much nothing else. It now has many of the stylistic themes of the new 'Stang/Challenger...That may be good/cool to some people, it's not to me

I in no way said that old Camaros or old anything was/is junk...I personally love the '69's design...I love all Camaros, it's just they have always evolved... this new one apparently hasn't. There is no need to rehash what has been done before...that's crap that Ford and now DCX are into. GM doesn't have to and shouldn't stoop to their level...It's time to lead the pack, instead of just semi-blindly following it.

When your 18 people in their late 40's to early 50's are definitely considered to be old j/k

Two sweet rides first off...This new Camaro looks to have the aerodynamics of a brick...Now I could be wrong about that, but from just eyeing it, it would seem that way. Is it too much to ask for to have a sleek modern from end on a new Camaro??? There was a reason those Superbirds had that "aerodynamic" nose clip...Good aerodynamics are our friend...A modern Camaro should be aerodynamic...Old muscle cars had the aerodynamic properties of a brick wall which in no way enhances performance... Therefore I feel that it's a design that should be left in the past. Now, I know it's been mentioned somewhere that Red said aerodynamics were an important consideration during the designing process...In the case that the car is pretty aerodynamic I still want a sleeker front end on it

3rd and LT1 4th gens have recessed headlights too But I have to agree with you, what you describe is a badass looking car...But on the other hand so is this:



I think '69 Camaros are awesome...I also think the new concept needs a good bit of work. The new Camaro needs alot more 3rd and 4th gen influence in it besides just the grill and C-pillar...

I do have a pretty good knowledge of the history of Camaros...And because of that fact I know that since at least 1970 the Camaro was marketed as a "poor man's Corvette" or a car for someone that wanted a Corvette but needed a back seat for their kids. Nothing was wrong with it then, so what's wrong with it now? That's what a Camaro has been since it's very begginings and that's the way it should stay. The new Camaro has lost it's edge...There's nothing so outrageous and groundbreaking about the new concept...That was something every new Camaro used to be...I'm sorry though, that my feeling this way makes me ignorant I also never said that the concept doesn't look like a Camaro, I said it's not what I had in mind as being the 5th gen. In fact it looks quite a bit like a Camaro...In a bad way though...It's not a fresh design with heritage cues that would make it identifiable as a Camaro. It's an old Camaro design that was massaged to look new. I also don't believe a Camaro always had a hatch and long doors. It's quite obvious they didn't...And personally I couldn't of cared less whether or not the new concept had a hatch or a trunk or if it had long doors or short doors...Also, to me it doesn't matter whether or not the backseat is useable...If sells more cars because it has a useable back seat then great. Just don't compromise the design or performance to achieve that goal. To me, a Camaro is a poor man's 'Vette, (with a little bit more attitude of course...at least visually in most cases), and so I really am not concerned with rear seat space. Lastly, I have never ever heard of someone cross shopping a Camaro and BMW...I would prefer to keep it that way They are two completely different cars for two completely different buyers and if the new Camaro was an attempt to cater to possible BMW buyers I'd be real pissed...I want a Camaro, not a 3 series. Besides, GM already has a car that is well suited for this duty, GTO.

All 3 of those assumptions would be correct The Sky and Solstice are cool but aren't quite badass enough...Plus, you can't get an 8 cylinder in them...and for as small as they are they are overweight. The Chevy Kappa Stingray V6 appears to be a bastardization of a great name...I hope it never gets off the drawing board. The GTO while nice is too mellow of a car. The suspension is too soft, the tires are too small, I don't like the seating postion, it looks ok but isn't great, and it's too heavy. Used 'Vette...now your talking I will accept any donations that anyone sends me in an attempt to find myself a lightly used C5/C5 Z06 or to buy a new C6/C6 Z06

 

Neil, you have obviously been one of the most vocal guys around here with a dislike for the concept, and that's cool. But let me just play devil's advocate for a minute with that statement. If the 2005 Mustang has taught us anything it's that you can't underestimate the impact a "heritage" design, no matter how "gimmicky" it may be, can have on people...a lot of people, for that matter. GuionM has told us that the new Mustang has many thousands of conquest buyers, many of them from some of the most unlikely of places.

I've been curious about what others have been saying about the concept, so I've been visiting a LOT of enthusiast sites in all areas of the auto world since Monday morning. Many like it, some do not, but I see a lot of people who say "I'd love to own one. Build it!" And these guys are on Stangnet...or SRTForums...there are even some Asian owners commenting on the Detroit News website about how this concept, if built, could very well bring them back to an American car. Now, how much of that is just talking out of their a** is certainly up for debate. I'm just saying, you can't dismiss the impact a car might have until you really get the opinions of some of these people.

 

I agree that the interior will have to be toned down significantly. As far as my thought for making this Camaro appeal to more than the performance oriented... I do think it's a step in the right direction. We're getting rid of the hatch, getting some usable cargo space, and making the base model do more than blend into the crowd.
Look how bland the base model of the 4th gen was. You can tell that GM designed for the V8, and "dumbed it down" for the V6 version. This car has the styling that I wouldn't be embarassed to drive down the street in the V6. I feel that they're planning on the quality and styling of the base version to pull the car through, and producing a seriously cool V8 version for the rest of us.

 

I'm not underestimating it at all, as far as impact and being high profile or underestimating how it makes the traditional buyer react to that product but I do question it for bringing in other buyers. GM is the one who wants non traditional buyers as well as traditional buyers. How is a concept that is based off a 40 year old car going to excite people who don't like Camaros in the first place or even know what a 1st gen looks like. Maybe it has that "old" look to it but looks different enough that it is distinctive and almost seems new. It is possible, but I doubt it.

The biggest problem I see is NOT that the Camaro is retro, but that it has already been done; 1st by the Mustang and 2nd by the Challenger. Three retro cars that have very similar design principles and purposes. This market is not big as of right now and they will all be scrambling for the same sales so the more distinction, the better. For all the hoopla with the "new" Mustang, it only sold 160k units(I believe that is true) and that is with the whole market to themselves and with a brand new model. Yes, they might have sold more if the production capacity had been increased but not by huge numbers. I would be interested to know the figure of conquest Mustang sales for the '05. Anyone know? Also, SRT and Ford forums are not where the Camaro needs to gain sales from because those are still in the traditional Camaro buying demographic and all three will have thier own retro muscle car so some Chevy people will go with Challenger, and vice versa. They need those damn import buyers.

With that said, I still think the Camaro is the more attractive of the three, not just in design but in size, performance, and mechanicals. Maybe the Camaro will be a runaway hit and put one out of buisiness and turn the market into a two horse race again.