I have noted some folks happy with the info shared on the new Camaro and some that are not happy at all.

I wish everyone would be exited about the new car, but that is a rare occurance. There are different prefrences here regarding one's favorite generation, so opinion differences aren't that surprising to me. It's very much the same no matter what iconic car or brand you can name.

I am a bit troubled when folks start to get outside of passionate difference and press the insulting "guardrail".

From what I have gathered so far, the biggest issues for the folks who are voicing dissappointment with the car are weight, and interrior/interior appointments.

Not much is firm on a next level performance Camaro.

Here's an idea.

If we can agree there are tradeoffs in choosing what to have and not have in a car model, I'd like to hear more about what strong and convincing business case you can put together for a higher performance Camaro. Please try to include the target market and the price point. Also, please, consider the proposed number of units it will take to justify such a vehicle.

Explain, if you would, what strong factors that were known dissatisfiers with any previous Camaros and explain how to address them or show they can be ruled out.

Make no mistake, there is no sarcasm involved in my request. Folks here are far more interested in the car business than most any other forum of this kind. Come up with a good enough case and you may get the car you don't think GM is offering.

If it needs to be light, explain how to get there, much it will cost, justify any expenses and address any tradeoffs. Bigger HP, smaller HP, interior...take it on. Explain the motivators.

I hope some will give this a try. I think it will be enlightening to lots of folks. Make a reasonable case and you might get just what you want.

 

This sounds like a great exercise, and I believe this can provide for some stimulating conversation...

However, the keystone to the whole thing is missing:

How much do you have to INVEST?



The key part of that works out something like this:

GM Guy #1:
We need a Camaro.

GM Shooter:
We don't have much money.

GM Guy #3:
Well, we could save cost by building the platform off Zeta.

GM Guy #1:
Yeah, but Zeta is kinda porky. The car could end up weighing nearly 4000 lbs.!

GM Shooter:
Do you want a Camaro or no?



GM Guy #1 valiantly takes up his sword and shield and tries to go make the best Camaro he can....




SOMETHING in the Nissan and Ford business case, development and investment processes allows them to make the decision to make a 2+2 performance coupe, line up the investment and build the car off of unique, or NEAR unique platforms.

Ford is under tremendous financial pressures also.

That's the key right there. Something systemic is at work here. Either certain things were not goals, or the investment money or engineering resources didn't exist, or the company convinced itself into thinking that +3900 lbs. for a curb weight was OK or "the best they could do".

A +3900lbs. curb weight MIGHT ACTUALLY BE OK. Along with other considerations, the market will decide that.



BTW - don't mistake what I've written above for just bagging on GM. I'm trying to be constructive.



.

 

As a further note...

And another wall of text...

I have a critical opinion here, so if anyone would like to shoot me, I'll send you my address...

Anyway, I think something just misfires in GM's decision processes from time to time.

All big organizations do dumb things occasionally, but the SUREST way to reliably get a dumb decision out of an organization has to be involving a committee of people more worried about:

A) Offending their boss or somebody else important and thereby losing their jobs or an opportunity for promotion.

B) Being individually intent on proving how smart they are to everyone else by agreeing with everyone else on every point.

It's not an insidious or willful thing on their part. It just happens. The culture creates it and people adapt to it and you get OATMEAL.

You get G8's with no NAV... etc...


Here's a perfect example...

I have walked into meetings at GM, OFFERING THEM MONEY on a cost savings. Real, significant money... like... 7 figure money... or a significant functional improvement to their components at a relatively minor cost, and nobody will DO anything.

"That's great, we gotta have a meeting about it. I'm super busy. I'm not sure Purchasing is going to go for it though... We'll see."

Then it dies.


Afterwards, somebody takes that very same idea to a GM competitor, and they jump at it... and I'm left wondering:

"Erm... what the hell just happened here????"




.

 

Business case: I've improved MPG. That alone at $4gas sells cars.
Oh and there's faster quartermile times, better handling, quicker braking.
So just that one thing improves EVERY other technical category that you will see a specification written about in that little box in motor trend, car and driver, or that EPA sticker on the window.

How: Different platform. Like I said before 3rdgen+platic panels+aluminum LSx=few hundred less pounds. Add back in dome light air bags. Heated and cooled glove box and all that other BS, you're still no heavier then you started with and the 3rdgen was/is the lightest mass produced fbody ever made.
I think that's the best proof of concept you can come up with that easily shows what can be done.
Of course with a 5th gen you stamp different shape panels for the outside, the machine doesn't really care, different shaped buttons for the interior, again a button costs the same whether it's a circle button or a square one, etc etc. The idea isn't that you build it on the old 3rdgen frame, the idea is you COULD build something that is a 2+2 RWD v8 sports car on a frame that can/has been made that does weigh less and for all practical purposes have pretty much the same layout. Also it must have been cost effective or GM wouldn't have made them for 10 years.

I want to hear the business case for zeta?
"Umm lets dedicate 1 whole platform for 1 car. That will be cost effective!"

Doesn't sound any better to me.

EDIT: i want to end on a positive note. To GM's credit they did build a better car in almost all categories then their two direct competitors challenger and mustang.
Challenger is even heavier and while the hood is kick *** the sides are so boring and flat and vertical.
Mustang, well they are just slow, but that's nothing new

 

Thats it! Right there you got it! They built a car better than the competition. What else can you expect? Is that not the goal in a free market economy? Sure it would be nice to have a lighter car. Or a faster car. Or a more efficient car. But if nobody in this class did it any better than what is there to complain about? I'm not saying the car is perfect. But considering this is 2009 and there are more safety standards, fuel efficiency standards, and even (unofficial) performance standards. Meeting all of the criteria while most importantly, keeping it affordable. Although we have yet to see a price we can assume it is affordable compared to its competitors.

I didn't mean to high jack the thread. Its a great idea, one that very few will be able to tackle. It is much easier to state "It should be lighter" than to actually make it lighter. If it was as easy as snapping your fingers GM would have done it along with every other manufacturer.

 

I give them credit for that, and C's in college will get you through with a degree.

Here's where GM's decisions have got them though. Lowest stock price in 50 years.
Here's were I am coming from. I work in the transportation industry. Believe me as bad as $4gas hurts you it's killing our industry. Competitors to us are going out of business left and right.
Those that are staying in business are hemorrhaging money left and right on average of 20% LOSS.
Where are we at? We are at a 20% profit! That's a 40% spread.
Just under our parent company we have ~350 direct competitors. Outside that we have hundred's more. Guess were or agency ranks in those 350 agencies? The very damn top, every month!
Think about that, there are 350 competitors out there and we are the best. That's a mindset, it's lived, it's learned, it takes work every day.
I'll be honest. I am as argumentative at work as I am on this board.
If I know I am right I will argue with people that can fire me till they are red with anger at me. But at the end of the day the right decision gets done, because I didn't give up. I wasn't ok with being average. I got worn down, tired, wanted to go home, knew I'd get paid the same whether I went with my best way or someone else's pretty good way. I gained nothing, but I am still driven enough to do everything to get the best. I demand the best from myself, I give it to the people I work with and I expect it from everyone else.
Being ranked 100 out of 350 would be easy. It would still be in the top 1/3. It would be less stressful, but it wouldn't be the best.
That's my mindset. I like being the best. I'm driven to be the best.
Mediocrity is also a mindset, it's also learned. I refuse to accept it. I refuse to put up with people who accept it. GM did pretty good; they did better then the competition, maybe a B-.
It's not an A+ and until it is there is room for improvement.
There are no excuses, there is no fail. There is only do and keep doing!

 

Basically, even though this doesnt specificallly address your question, what i really wanted above all to see is the return of the Z/28, z28 Z28 z-28 however you wanna write it, a Z/28.. now doing this, while being honest to the cars heritage is key to me as well.

The z28 was always in the later years the top camaro, with the exception of the 3rdgens going to IROC-Z's and the fourth having SLP add things to a basic Z/28 and calling them SS's. Either way to me they were all Z/28's.

I love the new camaro, and I havent seen production in person, but from what ive read, watched, and seen i think it will be a killer car.. but to me, without a Z/28 package, it doesnt seem like its complete...

I've been near the concept (as near as anyone would let me anyways) numerous times, and loved that car, this past weekend i was lucky enough to get up close and personal with a new Challenger, and I kept thinking god, that car is HUGE. I kept saying, that well luckily the new camaro isnt gonna be that big.. and then i see the specs, and im like wait a minute its huge too.. So.. i dont know what to do or say in response to your original question.

I realize that Safety standards are causing all sorts of things to change, i realize that the government has imposed laws that in no way would let you produce a 1st, 2nd , 3rd or even 4th gen in todays market and sell it. However, i also know, and have faith that there are enough folks at GM, and other car manufacturers, and other places, that could get the job done, affordably.

That the new car is even here, is a dream come true, do not think its not, and no one i think that are true camaro fans, would say its not.. however key things, like a Z/28 are still missing. And unfortunately, you guys cant please everyone..

Key things i think folks want that i've picked up on :

less weight - although doing this at the same pricepoint i think is impossible or dang near it.
In Dash Navagation - If the G8 can have it, why cant we? lots of folks dont like the onstar as being the only t hing.. plus lots of customizers like to watch DVDs on their tv's in tehir cars.

z/28 - we really miss this one.


Ok, im kinda rambling, and i didnt really address your question totally.. and for that im sorry... but if i had to beat one thing into anyone at GM's head, it'd be GIVE ME A Z/28.


thanks for reading my incoherent rambling.

 

Wow, where to start with this.....

I, for one, when I looked at the concept, thought it looked hideous inside and out. I haven't looked really really close at the production version, but I love the way the car looks. It looks the way it should.

However, the Camaro's performance has ALWAYS been VERY close to that of the Corvette at a more affordable price point. I find it really hard to believe that will still hold true with an 800 lb weight difference between the two cars. Everyone knows weight kills everything. If you don't like that, address your complaints to Sir Isaac Newton.
I understand the reasoning, "Using "exotic" materials cost too much" and "Quality/reliability" costs weight, blahblahblahblahblah.....I go back to the Corvette; it weighs 3100 lbs and it's a quality car. Oh the exotic materials it's made of though.....Hogwash! Aluminum is NOT an exotic material - the 4th gen Corvette that's 20-something years old is practically ALL ALUMINUM! I know a lot of people will buy the Camaro the way it is, but I feel that the customer base that has been alienated by this new Camaro is bigger than some think.

The new Z28 needs to get back to it's roots. I'm not talking about an "OnStar delete package" either. I'm talking about getting rid of everything on the car that doesn't help performance like the original Z28 did. I for one don't need seats that massage my butt on a performance car. Air conditioning - chuck it. Radio - out the window. Speaking of windows, cranks are fine with me. Sounds kind of like the early 1LE cars huh? That has been mentioned before and I like it.

This is how the Z28 should be made:

1. Either use the LS7 engine or an LS3 w/performance features (headers/low restriction exhaust, low restriction cowl induction intake) - for at least 440 hp with no gas guzzler tax.

2. 6-speed manual transmission only. Use the stupid skip-shift if it helps with fuel economy ratings (people can always delete it).

3. Get the car down to less than 3500 lbs through extensive use of aluminum in the chassis/suspension. Use a lightweight wheel/tire/brake package to reduce unsprung weight. Strip the car of all "non-performance related" options (OnStar, butt-massaging leather seats, huge stereo, AC, etc.). Also use fiberglass body panels in the front end.

4. Make it so all Z28 parts can be bought through GMPP.

5. Price the car just below that of a Challenger SRT8.

6. Watch Z28s fly off lot.

 

Ok the difference between my complaints and your's are mine are realistic and I can understand certain people want things I don't and these things need to exist so they buy it too.

You on the other hand have lost your mind if you think 95% of the actual buyers want no a/c, no radio and no power windows, locks.

A stipper only verision would not sell in big numbers.

 

My hope is not to go to the negative just because it's the easy out. The amount to invest is based on the return. This isn't a go fast excercise.

I'm hoping folks will try to discuss a new horse, not beat a dead one.

 

C'mon guys... turn the passion into a business case.

I'll try to help a little. Define the reasons for a higher performance Camaro. Then address what is the best way to pull those who won't buy into the will buy column.

If it's too heavy and that is the major factor, extrapolate on what can be done to lighten the car, what it will cost, if anything, and what can be gained.

 

I did that.

I heard the new camaro uses mostly steel other then the hood.
Plastic like the 4thgen is lighter, doesn't rust, and resists dents. Also cheap.
Oh and weighs less.

 

I'm diligently trying to not just be purely negative here.

The car has strong positives.




But building a business case without having any kind of investment criteria is well-nigh impossible.

Aluminum is 1/3 the density of steel. Probably a good mass reduction, right?

Read this:
http://www.ussautomotive.com/auto/steelvsal/cost.htm

I can get some weight out of the car with aluminum or composites, but the problem is you would have to re-tool the entire tool set for any panel I wanted to use aluminum instead of steel on, but I'm not getting squat if I can't invest... AND that horse has already left the barn.

There is NO WAY GM is going to invest in new stamping tooling for the car's body panels now. It had to happen up front, or it ain't gonna happen.




.

 

[QUOTE=Aaron91RS;5494548]3rdgen+platic panels+aluminum LSx=few hundred less pounds. Add back in dome light air bags. Heated and cooled glove box and all that other BS, you're still no heavier then you started with and the 3rdgen was/is the lightest mass produced fbody ever made.


Not slagging on you or your idea--3rd gens got me committed to owning a Camaro, but what you've described is for all intents & purposes a LS1 4th gen--which takes us back to 2002 when one of the main reasons the 4th gen ceased was that it couldn't pass post 2002 crash/rollover standards. So we're back to needing a stronger platform. Stronger usually correlates with heavier unless you go the Z06 route which gets you to lighter but then you've swerved into expensiver which kills Camaro as a volume model.

Neat thread.

 

Couple of points:

1) Plastic is not cheaper than steel.

2) Plastic has paint issues.


That being said, given the technology improvements in paint since the F4 was around - and the fact that the entire Corvette is plastic - there's got to be something there.