Until we get a platform engineer or a accountant/economist in here to explain that with what GM had to work with for the Camaro, $250 million est., that Zeta and it's upgrades were the only business case. And to get the weight down to 3,xxx lbs would mean in increase per vehicle of $yyy.yy, this same argument will never stop.

GM obviously felt that curb weight if kept in check and not out of the range of the competitors, Mustang - Challenger, would not degrade performance and fuel economy enough to warrant a price hike out of the class.

That is not to say GM didn't care about curb weight. Obviously with CAFE they will need to lighten every car and truck produced. The 6th Gen Camaro will benefit from that as time goes on. I just hope there is still room for the Camaro and an optional V8 available in future GM plans.
To get there the 5th Gen will need to be a hit and back to the business case we go.

 

Right.

The 5th gen is here, there's no point in debating decisions made 5 years ago. We need ground rules for this discussion.

So let's assume we're talking about a 6th gen in 2015.

Should it be based on an Alpha or Zeta size platform?

If the Alpha is designed for a V6, and needs lots of $$ to modify for a V8, such that it would add $10000 if 15K are sold, should that be done?

If a Zeta-sized V8 could be sold for $5000 less than an Alpha V8, due to being able to use an off-the-shelf design, should the Zeta design be used even if it weighs 150 pounds more?

I'm sure numbers are different, but I think this puts some bounds on the discussion.

Put another way, how many people would spend $5000 to save 150 pounds? Would you gain or lose sales?

Unfortunately, a real business case entails spending lots of time and money to gather data on which to make decisions, so we can just play the rank amateur here.

 

We've beaten that to death.

Stripped performance cars don't sell.

Honestly, if that's what someone really, really, wants...

They can de-content the car themselves. Nobody is preventing them from unbolting their AC compressors... replacing their seat tracks with fixed brackets... pulling the rear belts and seats... etc...

For every one of me (the guy that'll yank out his rear seats for the weight savings), there's gotta be 100 to 1000 buyers who would never consider such a thing.

If GM makes me the target market for the car, and makes those decisions that way, they might sell 1 to me - but they'll miss 500 others who won't accept the car.



There's a very important point buried right there...

"all three domestic manufacturers"

Something is at play there that I haven't put my finger on yet mentally. The equation is different for some reason. It seems that if you're on a different side of an ocean right now, somehow you're coming up with a significantly lighter performance car...

I really, really, need to think about that one...









Anyway, here's a suggestion...

The SLP formula worked once and managed to tool up their own hood and some other parts. Maybe it's time to dust that formula off again and let another company take the car as is and have a go at it.




.

 

If you build a car bigger in exterior dimensions it’s not a surprise if it weighs more.
The 4thgen had bigger exterior dimensions , higher belt line, weighed more and yet was more cramped on the inside then a 3rdgen. The 5th gen has even higher belt line it appears. That high belt line doesn’t help. If the belt line is a couple inches higher, that’s a couple extra inches of metal and plastic all the way around the car. 2” more belt line is 1060 square inches more area on the car of material! Quit making the belt line so high.

You say the 3rdgen/4thgen won’t pass safety standards? I can understand they won’t pass one’s that didn’t exist when the car was made. Although did we really flip a 3rdgen over to see how it would do in today’s new standard? No of course not.
As for safety standards the 4thgen did get:
Passenger: 5 stars
Driver: 4 stars
Side Impact Front: 3 stars
Side Impact Rear: 4 stars
3rdgen I can’t find but I remember it getting 4 and 5 stars for side and front.
Maybe what you mean to say is it can’t pass the safety standards with perfect scores.
Ok, but I don’t think the people that buy these cars are going to not buy them because it got a 4 not a 5.
The people that won’t buy them are the people like my mother who think any V8 is a death trap and Volvo makes the only safe car. The rest of us probably aren’t as concerned unless it starts getting 1’s and 2’s. Frankly until I looked it up I couldn’t have told you what the camaro got and I didn’t much care as long as it was on the higher side of the mean and it is.
If safety is so important why don’t other new GM cars get all 5’s? It would be much easier to overlook performance and weight in a G6 in exchange for safety because the people that buy those cars aren’t buying them for all out performance first and foremost usually.
I looked up a G6.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=540
I see a poor rating and 3 average ratings? Why is that acceptable for a new G6 but not a camaro? I don’t think you can argue the camaro saftey has to be perfect but the rest of the lineup doesn’t?
Then I looked up the mustang because it’s a direct competitor and sells in huge numbers compared to the camaro.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=601
Does better but not perfect, yet still sells. Looks like 4’s and 5’s can sell cars.
Bottom line to me is lower the belt line, don’t make a 3foot dash and 1 foot thick empty door airspace. And if zeta was too big then it was too big. Nothing in the world would have made it weigh less. But again still waiting for the business case of building 1 car on a unique frame.


Get a political science major in there since your lobbyists can’t seem to stop these stupid laws from being passed. Heck get with the UAW and tell them here’s a number of a congressman that’s going to pass a law that will hurt the performance of a car they build and could eventually hurt their job if that car can’t be sold.
If you’d like to take a 20min break and go call him to express that you want to oppose this bill there’s a free phone in the lunch room. Lol. I’m not a political science major but you get the idea. Obviously bribes and kickbacks aren’t working for you haha

 

Why has nobody answered this guy ? Really ? Stretching it would include all kinds of rigidity add-ons, but at what weight cost ?

To GM personnel : Surely this idea was considered, why was it ditched ?

I think there are a few people here who can answer this, yet don't want to.

And also : If you were to reproduce the third gen and bring it to today's acceptable standards (not 5 star all around as someone pointed out earlier) How heavy would it be ?

 

I want to clarify that this isn't meant as a discussion about a business case for a 6th gen.

It is meant to try to focus on what can be done to formulate a possible higher performance 5th gen Camaro which will appeal to those that want more.

Zeta has been the known platform for some time, and it is the platform for the 5th gen.

ONCE AGAIN, THE PREMISE OF THIS THREAD IS A POSSIBLE HIGHER PERFORMANCE 5TH GEN CAMARO. It is not meant to be a 6th gen thread.

 

IMO the first question you have to answer is who is going to buy this car NEW.

Racers? I doubt it. Serious ones will start with a "body in white", hobbyists will wait for used ones to get affordable.

Track day people? Maybe a few, but they'd have to be pretty set on a Camaro in the first place because if it was my money, I'd go for the bang for the buck a used Z06 would deliver.

Autocrossers? Too small a group to matter and they'll wait to see how it gets classed before making a move.

The well-healed collector and hobbyist? Here's your primary customer. I'll bet that most sightings of this car will be at "Show and Shines".

Now design the car with a high profit business model in mind. I'll bet it comes pretty close to what the rumored Z28 was/is intended to be.


As someone that drives the wheels of his cars and considering the price of gas, especially in Canada, I'd like to see a "sport" V6 model that provides all the handling and braking of the SS or better.

 

OK, let me try this approach.

Let's say reducing weight by 400-500 lbs nets a 3 mpg increase across the board.

Using the current Camaro SS 15 mpg city, we increase that to 18 mpg.

Over the course of 100,000 miles and a very conservative fuel cost of $4.50/gallon:

Camaro SS (15 mpg) 100,000 miles/15 mpg = 6666.7 gallons consumed.
Camaro SS (18 mpg) 100,000 miles/18 mpg = 5555.6 gallons consumed.
Fuel saved = 1111.1 gallons
Money saved = 1111.1 gallons x $4.50/gallon = $4999.95

You still don't think people who are capable of that math would be willing to pay $5000 more for a 400-500 lb lighter car? How's that for a business case for decreasing weight?

 

It seems to me like you want us to tell you that we know of no possible way to reduce weight without sacrificing comfort, but the minute someone suggests removing comfort, you go on about telling "a stripper car doesn't sell".

Of course no one here that does not work for an auto manufacturer knows how much these or those body panels cost more/less than the actual ones.

Since you seem to be the one to know the costs and benefits involved, can YOU tell us how to strip a car without removing comfort ? Someone already posted the most obvious ones (aluminum body panels, removing interior luxury) so i don't what else can be said since you declared the obvious as too costly.

To contribute i'll post the most obvious :
- Aluminium body panels all around the car
- Remove any and all sound deadening for the cockpit (z/28 enthusiasts want to hear their engine anyway)
- Replace your comfortable bucket seats for lighweight racing ones (if you ever seen true lightweight seats you'll know what i'm talking about)
- remove interior carpets and finish the bare metal with minimum protection (Lotus Elise)
- If there can be an extreme weight gain, would you consider putting in a live axle back there ? (i mean extreme)
- Keep the AC but removing anything that has en electric engine otherwise.
- Keep only the mandatory airbags
- Shop for lightweight anything (steering, plastics, anything really)

Weight reduction is quite popular among all high end sports cars, wouldn't checking their techniques be dead-on what you seek ?

My opinion :
- There is no easy or cheap way to lighten a heavy platform
- There is not a big market for a stripper car
- That leaves a Z/28 with one option : the biggest and strongest V8 GM can produce, without forced induction, but don't skip on the air intake and headers.

 

Not really a good one actually.

Firstly, the assumption that $4.50 a gallon gas is here to stay may or may not be a good one. If gas goes up to $5 or $5.50, you're argument gets better and better. Should the bottom fall out next week and we're sitting on $2.25 or $2.50 gas, then its not a very good argument. The unpredictability of commodies markets makes this a hard point to base your business pitch of of.

Secondly, unless you're talking about someone filthy rich who ultimately doesn't care about gas prices or that proverbial guy thats been saving for years to pay cash for his new Camaro, you neglect the accrued interest charges over the life of the loan. @ 6% for 5 years you're looking at almost $800 in extra accrued interest. In todays market you're probably looking at closer to 7% which is approaching $1000 extra in interest.

Thats not to mention the intangibles of the sales experience, ie sticker shock. I know when we bought my wife's car, I was planning on about a $20k car. It was quite shocking when the salesman lead me to a $25k car. There's a dangerous game of playing to what the primary market segment expects the price to be. Too high and it scares people off with sticker shock. Too low and it scares people off who think its "a cheap POS."

 

No, most wouldn't. they would see, Maybe even rightly so, that by your calculations, you would save $5k over what, 6 or 7 years? As opposed to paying $5k more over,say 4-6 years when they financed the car? The v-6 Camaro gets really good gas mileage for what it is. that is their bread and butter car, I think they nailed it.That I can still get a a high performance v-8, makes me quite happy. And for the last time, please show me a comparable car, at the Camaros estimated price point, that is significantly lighter( with more than 400 hp and 400 lb-ft of torque)

Now, for the business case for the new Uber Camaro;

Beleive it or not, I can see TWO Cases for an up level Camaro;

Z28 - I see this car, with as much weight reduction effort as GM can spare. Lightweight 18" wheels (just large enough to clear the brakes), Aluminum hood, fenders and deck lid. Relatively minimalist equipment (yes it does need ac, pwr windows etc) but it doesn't need the super high end stereo, ambient light, and make the seats lighterweight (not sure whjat the difference between Chevy Buckets and the Cobalts Recaro is, but if it saves pounds, do it.) Numbers: How many lancer EVo's and WRX STi's are sold? That would be a good starting point for consideration. The Z28 legacy was born in road racing, why not focus a car with that mission. The LS3 has PLENTY of power, make the car manual only, make the suspension pieces even higher quality, out of lighterweight materials, etc. Now you have a true to form Z28.

As far as a SC Camaro, it already exists. Jst have the LSA be an available option on the SS Camaro. SS's were the boulevard cruiser, straightline terror.That the new ones will also have very good handling, and great amenities is even better. For the serious motorsports guys, the Z is the pony of choice, for the rest of 95% car buying public, a SC SS is more than enough, and most likely more car than they are used to. Price, SS -SC to undercut the GT500 if it is economically feasible. Would be neat to see a 550 hp Camaro come in at 41,995 (before options). Z28 pricing? Not sure, maybe equivalent? That price would need to be determined between expected sales and expected cash outlay. If you could knock off 300-400 Lbs, people would most likely (if they are serious) pay mid 40's. I imagine it is a hell of a lot harder to re-engineer the lighter components then it is to stick a LSA in a an already capable car.

 

I'll give you a hint. It's 3 letters, GM built it 3-4 years ago, is 200 lbs lighter and has 2 "real" back seats.

 

And a great car, and unfortunately on a platform that does not exist anymore. It also can't pass the 2007 federal crash stanards, and only weighs around 100 lbs less.

Just for the record, I REALLY liked the last gen GTO. I liked the styling, I liked the performance, I liked the name. But, at the time they were offered new, I had two car payments and a monster motgage, unfortuntely it just didn't work. Now I am down to one car payment and almost nothing mortgage, my time is finally come!!

 

I haven't posted what you suggest, so maybe you are attributing some other poster's points to me. I haven't set any negatives about cost. That's the nature of a business case excercise.

I think if you read Scott's post he alludes that going composite/alternative body skin material was reviewed and I further read what he says is that for the full line of Camaro the price point held large sway over the choices that could be exploited. < I don't doubt he will correct me if I missed his point.> I'm not talking the full line of Camaro here. In my opinion the V6 and SS cars are spot on for the parameters the great majority of customers insisted on being addressed.

So, we are talking Z/28 here. I haven't constructed a "box" we can't think outside of. This is no attempt by me to set up a straw man argument.

 

I understand where you're at. I didn't want to be harsh but it seems as though we're in a tight spot here concerning costs.

Also i know i didn,t mention it straight away, but i AM talking about a possible Z/28 in my suggestions, do they seem reasonable ?