All I got to say is that a stripped down Z28(No air, etc.) is NOT going to fly off the lots. I'm sure there would be sales, but overall that would be very small amount of buyers. That's what these guys don't get. It's a different time, a different world and GM just is not able to just build any darn thing that people
want.

 

Stripped, no. Content limited, yes.

 

Well, you cost statement is almost always true, regardless of proposed vehicle. Return on investment is a key to justifying costs. Anyone will invest a buck if they can get three back.

One hint I can suggest is that you have to base such a business case on the market < number of sales out there >, define what that market insists on and what they don't insist on, and what they can and will pay for it.

You identify the number of sales first, then set to meeting or exceeding the expectations. You don't "build it they will come" without determining how many of the "they" there is.

I have my own thoughts and wll post them, but I hope to be able to hear more from the potential market. I don't want to presume the motivators.

 

I hope $5000 would cover the cost of the lighter car. It might cover the cost of the materials, but I doubt it would cover the tooling and engineering costs.

There are reasons the Z06 costs 25k more than the base vette.

Dry Sump system is a big one, people willing to pay a higher premium is another. The exotic materials and engineering it took is also up there.

Since most people wouldn't pay the extra 5k for a more fuel efficient car, you are probably looking at 1 model getting this, say a Z28.

I know the Dry Sump is heavy, and I don't know how heavy, but the Z06 weighs only 50lbs less than a base Vette. 500lbs of weight loss is not going to be cheap at all.

 

What content can be limited Charlie? It's not sarcasm, it's a real question. I presume it's creature comforts that are expendable?

 

Your math looks fine but only gives a savings to those driving the car 100K miles. We, I Want it Now Americans, don't have that kind of patience and most wouldn't be able to figure this out anyway. Gas is a moving target. If it falls, as it has been, then it'll take more miles for your calculation to work.

All they will see is the Mustang GT is $27K and the Camaro SS is $32K, from your equation. As we saw from the thread here where weight was compared to sticker price. The results even on this enthuiast website picked price 2 -1 over weight. (I picked weight)

The reason that we need an platform engineer or a bean counter from GM is because we don't even know if a weight loss of 400-500 is even possible and if so what it would cost. (Maybe Scott will add something)
Until we know those factors all of this is guess work. It seems like GM is going to deliver a capable and potent Camaro thats better than the competition near the Mustang price points. It was either a heavier Camaro on Zeta roots or none at all.

 

Some of the stuff posted in this thread makes me laugh. No offense, but really.

Why didn't GM just use a 3rd/4th Gen structure to save weight? Isn't that a little like asking Ford why they aren't still using the Fox platform? Higher beltlines are becoming more prevailant because of (I assume) tougher side impact standards. You need a taller side to better protect the occupants in this regard. I'm not a fan of what it does styling-wise, although on the outside I still really like the 5th Gen (do something about the disco interior pleeease! )

As far as the 5th Gen Z28 is concerned, I see this car as the "every" man's performance flagship at GM. Race it, put it out there, people will buy.

As far as weight and de-contenting it -- I'm about done complaining about the weight now with respect to it being something we can't get changed anyway. However, the direction of the Z28 should ABSOLUTELY be weight NEGATIVE, not positive. What I'm saying is, even if the Z28 got a hopped-up LS3 and lost as little as 100 pounds, then so be it. I would think 100 pounds could be removed Z06-style. 470 HP (let's say) at 3700 pounds appeals to me much more than 550 @4200 pounds. I have no clue what kind of investment this modest diet/hot-rod trick approach vs. what was planned for Z28 (more weight, more power) would take, so I'd love some education on this.

Charlie, I know you're looking for the 3500 pound Z28 and say Zeta is not capable of giving a "proper" Z28, but I think the car would be "proper" enough if it shaved even modest weight and added some power. After all, that is still ultimately the Z28 formula, if just on a slightly heavier scale.

 

I think GM had to make a sacrafice when coming to Zeta. Now while I do think that Camaro could start by cutting 150lbs for every model, this focus is about Z28.

Where can you loose weight? Everywhere. Now, before I get into where and what, you have to take into account how much weight you have to add back to the car. You could drop 100lbs off the car, but adding 200lbs of powertrains and suspension, and whats the point?

What could GM do to lose weight.
First off, aluminum body pannels.
My 2004 Malibu Maxx had an aluminum roof and hatch. Not only is it really hard to mount an XM antena, the car didnt cost any more then the regular sedan with a steel roof.
What would happen if Z28 employed the same thing? Aluminum hood, roof, and trunk lid? None of those surfaces involve any major bending or stamping outside of maybe the hood for the cowl, nothing like the doors or fenders.
Removing sound proofing like in the Z06 and ZR1. Remove parts of it.
As for decontenting the interior or option list...wrong. Z28 isnt going to be cheap, so people expect a certain level of luxury at this price point. This car will most likely be priced near Corvette range, so make sure there is a line between what a Camaro Z28 guy is, and a Corvette guy is.

Aluminum parts alone will not reduce enough weight to really drasticly reduce the weight of the car.

Engine wise, I would say that a 6.2 with DI would be a hell of a lot lighter then the LSA, and maybe a few lbs more then the LS3 if any weight gain at all.
Cost would be equal I would think, since Gen V's will be built for this technology already. Its not like it had to be thrown together.

Is it possible to add a magnesium subframes? Lower and push the engine further back toward the center of the car?

Will the Z28 need bigger brakes? 14 inch and 4 pistion calipers could pull down that car pretty fast, and if they kept the weight of the Z28 in or around the weight of the SS, why upgrade when the SS's brakes are pretty solid.

Maybe make a 1LE package for Z28, which adds 5k to the price of a regular Z28.
Brake package right off teh CTS-V with the larger rotors and calipers, carbon fiber hood, hollow front and rear sway bars, stiffer bushings, and performance summer tires. This could be the GT500KR type car, lighter weight more improvements, but dont cary that price increase.

Bilstien shocks and struts would be manditory, maybe include that mangaride system int he 1LE? I dont know what the cost is for the Corvette, but Im sure something like this could be worked out, especially if other Zeta/VE cars get it, cost could be spread out.

If Z28 could shave of 200lbs off the SS, while offering more power, better handilng, better braking, and then the 1LE package would probably weigh the same, but offer more performance and agressiveness, I think that would make for some seriously fun cars. I think a Z28 1LE would be rightup Charlie's ally.
3700lb 500hp direct injected 6.2 with a 7k red line, stirring the pot with a quick shifting 6spd shifter, switching the Magnaride to "Z28 Mode", taking on cars twice and three times the rpice, making Camaro Z28 a world class GT car for half the price...what else could you ask for?

 

I'm not Charlie, but the answer to your question has a recipe that isn't far away. Think about the C5 Z06 and what it did to save weight. Thinner windshield glass, titanium exhaust, lighter wheels, non run-flats, less sound proofing, lighter battery, etc, etc.

I believe that that's probably closest to what could be done to save weight on a budget. The problem is that that only saved like 40 lbs over the standard C5 if I remember correctly. Perhaps there's more low hanging fruit there to be grabbed with the new Camaro... As mentioned earlier by someone, possibly lighter seats of some sort, removal of a couple of other items that don't add value to the Z/28 formula, while not alienating potential buyers by removing certain essential items like air conditioning, etc.

Add some aluminum suspension components and remove/forbid a few content options like sunroof, HUD, auto trans. Give the LS3 the same treatment the LS6 had in relation to the LS1 and you're off to a good start. Don't forget to add in the adjustable shocks, and siffer sway bars,springs and bushings too. Hell, pull the fog lights and make them into brake duct holes while you're at it. Sprinkle in a few more aluminum bits in place of steel stuff and that's about all you can do.

 

I'd be curious to see if a person took the following things:
OnStar (If you can't find where you're going, you shouldn't be driving)
Stability Control (If you need this for you not to crash, you shouldn't be driving)
Traction Control (See comment for "Stability Control")
Bluetooth "stuff" (If you're talking on a phone, you shouldn't be driving)
and associated hardware/electronics

and put all that stuff in a box. I wonder how big that box would be and how much it would weigh?

Of course, heaven forbid people actually have to drive the car themselves.

 

It sure didn't seem to effect GM. Hell even an Aveo is almost 1.5 TONS last i looked .

Maybe Ford gets it, since their mustang is a good few hunderd pounds lighter than the camaro or challanger thus it doesn't need the extra weight of the huge brakes that GM had to provide or the nice high hp engine GM had to provide.

Also, just cause everyone else is doing it that way doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. unless of course GM insists on killing itself the way the other of the "big 3" have tried to.

 

Mustang GT might be light due to several factors, but the GT500 is a big of a heafty car when you figure what was done to it.
Outside of engine and trans, everything is pretty much the same. GT500 doesnt use different brakes, little different suspension, No IRS, a little stiffer chassis, but no reason for a car so light to start off with went up so fast with jut an engine and trans.
Id ont think Ford "gets it", they created a really cheap platform, cutting costs as well as weight where they could.

 

How much does the GT500 weigh? And even if the GT500 weighs a bunch, there's no denying that the GT and V6 weigh a lot less than the comparable camaro's.

 

First, if you've got ABS, traction control (as long as there is an electronic throttle body), is basically free weight-wise. If you want a "kickback" feature on the throttle pedal, there's a little more weight there, but not a whole lot.

Further, if you have ABS, stability control is basically free also - unless you're messing around with the shocks at the same time using magneto-rheowhateverthef*ck technology.


Second...

Isn't stability control becoming Federally mandated?


Regarding the others...

OnStar is a box and an antenna and a couple of buttons in a plastic switch housing. Not much there. Grab the hard drive out of a computer sometime... that's about how much mass you would save.

Bluetooth would be basically the same as Onstar weight-wise... maybe less.



Total, I think you might have saved 5 lbs. there, pissed off the Feds, pissed off your customers with Bluetooth cell phones, and lost the potential revenue from an Onstar subscription.





In general, big gains come from big, heavy parts - or the stuff that takes some real engineering work.

Happily, I happen to know that the door check is the lightest in the industry! Ask me how I know that...

I could probably get a few ounces out of the door hinges though.

Seats would be another good target to look at. There used to be this awesome fabric that had the potential to replace steel sprung seat suspensions.




.

 

Target customer: Me and folks like me. (Age: 40-55, Annual household income: $150,000+)

Target price: $38,000 - $45,000 (If you can do it for less, so be it.)

Primary needs:

A. Best performing Camaro ever. (0-60, 60-0, ¼ mile, skid pad)
B. Out performs competition (Top Mustang, Top Challenger, etc.)
C. Retains basic looks and styling of Camaro SS (No goofy wings, air dams, etc.)

Standard options:

Leather interior
HUD
6spd
Power windows
Power seats
AC
Kickass sound system
Bluetooth

Bonus items:

A real NAV system
Decent gas mileage (better than 20 mpg highway)
Heated seats
RAM Air or Cowl Induction

Basically everything the Camaro SS already offers except that it has to outperform the top Mustang and the top Challenger. Notice weight is nowhere in the equation. If it can do items A, B & C, then I don’t care how much it weighs. If it can do it with a naturally aspirated engine, bitchin’, if it needs a supercharger or turbo added on, so be it. Basically I want a street legal racecar with leather and all the bells and whistles.

Oh and while you’re at it, throw on some stripes and call it Z28.

To be successful, I’d have to guess you’d need to sell no less than 5,000 units a year, however I wouldn’t want it limited to 5,000, because you just may sell 10,000 to 15,000 the first year.