I think a 2+2 Kappa coupe would come in heavier than 3100lbs, simply from the platform having to be made larger to accommodate the rear seats. In the end though, a Kappa 2+2 could very well have been the lighter alternative. Too late for that now though.

 

The crux of the problem is building a sports coupe stiff enough to carry massive amounts of horsepower and keeping everything halfway affordable. The Big 3 know the pony car market is highly volitile, and the only way to keep money coming in during a downswing in coupe demand is to put it on a higher volume sedan/sedan-derived platform. I also suspect it is cheaper to go this route than to engineer a way to stretch a platform like GM's Kappa and double the horsepower it was originally designed to handle.

Unless there is some kind of huge explosion in sports coupe demand not seen since the 80's, Mustang and Camaro (and Challenger, if it continues beyond a few years) will never see a completely exclusive, purpose-built chassis underneath it ever again.

 

Not necessarily. It depends on how much effort was put into minimizing weight on the earlier models, such as C4. It may just be proof that a new model in which a lot of effort is devoted to minimizing weight isn't much heavier than the older model in which less effort was expended. Compare the latest Miata to the first Miata. It has gained about 300 pounds in spite of a lot of effort directed to minimizing weight gain.

Also, look at the Lotus Elise, which gained a few hundred pounds from the late 90's Euro model to the current one. Better yet, compare it to the spiritual predecessor from the 60s (the Elan).

Actually, European crash regulations have progressed to the point that similar-sized cars are about the same weight on both continents.

 

Seems to me that quite a LOT of effort was expended in keeping weight down on the C4.

Corvette demonstrates that it is at least *possible* to hold the line on weight, while increasing performance and meeting ever-more-stringent safety regs.

If the new Camaro comes in at 3600 lb. (+200 lb over the 4th gen) or more, the reason will have more to do with it being based on a 3800 lb. luxury sedan than anything else. IMO, it's just a shame it wasn't possible to base it on the Kappa, which I believe could have come in at 3200.

 

If you guys want to figure out how to reduce weight, it is simple,

invent a new alloy of steel that will cost the same as steel today (or less), yet weigh 1/2 as much, and have exactly the same (or better performance).

no?

Ok then, just invent a plastic that is obviously lighter than steel, has the same or better characteristics, and is cheap to manufacture....

Or find a mountain that is made of solid aluminum or magnesium, or even a alloy of the two, that is about the size of ohhhh Hawaii....... (including the underwater part).

I think the direction needs to be focused at maximizing efficiency and power of the powertrains, not shaving 1/2 an ounce here, and 1/2 an ounce there. If we can get 500 hp and 35 mpgs one day, that would be fine in a 3500 lb car, put it on some steam roller rubber, like 575 in the rear 435 in the front, and fix the steering so it feels lighter, and it could stick the corners. Ok so I am obviously overexagerating, but if you want to go light, go with the elise.

 

I don't know if that would help very much in keeping the price down on aluminum parts. To my understanding, aluminum is the most abundant metal on the Earth. It is mostly tooling and machining costs that drive the price of aluminum up.

 

Not picking on you in particular but I have seen similar remarks in a few other threads now and it's starting to **** me off.

I have owned three Camaros, two of them bought new, and I DO NOT want an Elise / Solstice / insert some-small-two-seat-car here. I like them for what they are but there just isn't the big American V8 rush under the hood.

What I do want and hope for is a Z28 that has rediscovered the reason why it was originally put forth on this earth. To be a lightweight road course burner.

I would not expect the entire model lineup to be sub-3500 lbs or even sub-3600 lbs. That doesn't bother me a bit. The base models and SS cars could afford to be a bit flabby IMO since they are, for the most part, loaded up daily drivers and cruisers. Remember that the 1967 Z28 was about 200 - 300 lbs lighter than a 1967 SS.

The Z28 was meant to compete in the corners and win.

I am, however, hoping that such an admittedly low production model would come in considerably lighter than the other more pedestrian models. Just like the original. And yes, I'm willing to pay a premium for a ZO6-like Camaro Z28.

GM and Chevy are staring at a clean sheet - golden opportunity to get it right. My fingers are crossed but right now I have my doubts. Anytime a smaller car is based off a larger one, the smaller car will be overweight. Witness the 350Z.


Keep at 'em Dan Baldwin. You too Charlie. I, as well as I'm sure more than a few other lurkers here who use their cars for more than acclerating from stop light to stop light, have your back.

 

Hey, thanks for the support.

 

Carbon fiber is supposed to be very strong. It is very light but also expensive. The thing about the CF is that it is strands that are very strong in some directions but if you apply force at a certain way, it will break it easily. If you know what i mean.

Indy cars are all made of that stuff now, strong enough for racing, but when the cars crash, they get messed up really easily. (force from unexpected direction)

I believe the saleen s7 has a body made entirely out of CF. Saleen rep told us that is costs saleen 200,000 to get a single body made.

I don't know how true this is but, it has its place. Z06's floor is made of CF and balsa wood IIRC.

 

Materials....seems like when Beancounters offer alternative materials, they are cheaper-yes, but often heavier to maintain strength.
With all of the outsourcing, tooling isn't as much of an issue as in the past, getting more trick-type parts, should be more cost effective than even just a couple of years ago.
Parts like tubular A-Arms, light-castings....probably stuff they're already considering, just have to pass the Beancounters.
Lightweight and Durability must comprimise to be succcessful.

 

my thinking is this:
start with a race car type design. it's fairly light, and can withstand wrecks at speeds a street car will most likely never see. now take that model and figure out how to use that safety structure (the "skeleton" of the car) and start adding your body panels (plastic like the older staturns?) and then use the space left and adapt the rest of the peices to fit without sacrifising wiht modifications that would take away from safety.

it may end up weighing as much as a car does now, but it would most likely be safer and cheaper to use a proven design and adapt it to soemthing you se everyday.

 

Yes, the original Z28 was intended to compete in corners and win. That was back when race cars were made from street cars. Look at nascar, is a taurus made for handling?

The last generation Z28 was not a base camaro stripped down and rebuilt as a race car.

Sorry to **** you off with my comment, but even the Elise is overwieight in my book for a car made of all aluminum. It's a ton, 2000 lbs.

I guess it is all what you actually consider light weight. I consider the Elise too heavy for what it is originally designed to be. Granted it has gained like 3-400 lbs becoming US spec, but the original version was truly light. Yes, compared to every day cars, the Elise is still light.

All I am saying is you are not going to get a truly light Camaro. Sure, they may shave off 200 lbs by using an aluminum block, aluminum hood, etc.... But you are not going to get a sub 3000 lb Camaro.

I consider light weight exactly that, light weight. 3500 lbs in a Muscle car (with the HP you know it'll have, is good) is acceptable, but not light.

I am just being realistic and not hoping for a 2500 lb Camaro. I'm hoping they can find the middle ground and put it at like 3200.

 

The cost of getting Aluminum from it's raw form to a solid chunk of usable material is the majority of the cost.

Basically, you take a large amount of dirt with high silica and aluminum content, and run hundreds of thousands of volts through it, the high temp causes it to melt and sink to the bottom and all fuse together. Basically it was a joke, you don't find solid aluminum, you make it.

 

*shrug* Never asked for one. At this point I'd be pretty damn happy if a low production Z28 model did not exceed 3500lbs.

And they do make race cars from production cars, in garages over the country and for more than a few different sanctioning bodies.

Sticking only with our car of choice....

Camaro-Mustang Challenge
American Iron
American Sedan
Touring 2
American V8 Supercar Series

I could go on....

 

People were saying they wanted a lighter camaro. You consider 3500 lbs light, good for you, I consider 2000 lbs light for a car. Basically I am more disappointed car to car than you.

As for racing, I am talking about a factory effort, Where GM, Ford and DCX all get into the mix, and others as well.....