Ford can't complete? Tell that to those prowling the streets in their 500(+) RWHP 2003 ~ 2004 Cobras. The LS1 wasn't able to completely destroy the Mach 1s and wasn't a car that could beat the Cobra during the last years of the 4th gen run. Currently, the Ford camp has a real car with the Mustang, you can walk into a dealership and buy one. WE are hoping a concept car that will answer our prayers in what TWO? maybe THREE years?

I am hoping GM makes a super high peformance SVT competitor. But, do I think that they will?

NO

If history is a great indicator of the future, GM will be content to be the last to the market, and have the least significant product in the top dog, ultra performance model offerings (take a look at the SS lineup vs the SRT lineup). The only place I see an exception is the Corvette brand. Face it. A 475 HP Camaro would not only be more powerful than a base Corvette, but it would simply be too close in horsepower to the Z06. Sorry guys, a Camaro SVT fighter (IMHO) has about a snow ***** chance in hell of happening.

 

The solution, of course, is to make the base Corvette 500 HP. ;p

 

IIRC, someone who we all respect here can be quoted saying that the Camaro will outperform the mustang in all performance categories, because thats what GM does. Whether that means top vs top or not, I think there is a good chance it is top vs top. I mean, the LS1 cars were right there with the C5's as well at the LT1 cars with the C4's. The corvette rule isn't and hasnt been in effect in real life, just on paper. I think we will and very well could see prices for the top dog Camaro around the same places the SS's and Firehawks were getting. If anything I am buying the best Camaro I can get, because I am going to be ready to buy my first new car, and my third Camaro.

 

That's what GM does? I am not saying GM doesn't build good cars.. but lead the performance category? I don't see it, maybe yoiu can enlighten me.

Would you like to discuss the SRT-4/6/8/10 DCX cars vs SS lineup?
GM is getting killed, hands down. GM doesn't lead... They merely try to match the competition, well after the fact. The two exceptions that stick out IMHO are the GTO and Z06.

 

I don't think the LS7 will be around in '09. With the L92 (6.2L) replacing the LS2 after a short lifespan, I don't see the LS7 being around in '09.

Ford can compete. Any word on Ford's future engine plans? I know the Hurrican program was canceled.

 

The Camaro needs to be profitable before it needs to stomp the GT500. Can it do both, I don't know.

 

Nice try. The '03 Cobra gets 16/22 mpg. 2002 Camaro numbers are 19/31.

If Ford could build a better LS1, they would. Their dual oh/cam, quad valve technology just didn't pan out.

No one is pissing and moaning about the superchargers. Rather, they are saying "We don't need no stinking supercharger".

 

Uhhhh....

WRONG.

Apart from changes necessary for the existing platform centering around induction and exhaust, the LS1 in the Camaro and the LS1 in the Corvette are basically identical.

 

Sure. But since the GTO is available...

Vipper vs. Z06 = Z06
SRT-8 vs. GTO = GTO
SRT-6 vs. Base Vette = Vette
SRT-4 vs. Cobalt SS = Dead heat.


You'd have to be a complete knucklehead to claim that GM isn't leading the performance war right now.

There are two holes:
A ponycar (taken care of in the next 12 hours... at least conceptually) and a hi-po rwd, low-buck family sedan.

The car shown tomorrow comes of a platform, and that platform addresses both holes... which is the part that has been missed by the great majority of the press and the folks here.

The cars that launch with Camaro off of the same family platform will be mighty impressive also.

 

YES.

400hp IS NOT the upper limit.

Take that one to the bank kids.

 

You missed the point, sure the Kenny Bell Cobra's are very fast... but how much do they cost? You can buy an SS, put the money into aftermarket, and still spend less, for a car that's faster than the Kenny Bell Cobra's. Ford was never able to build the Mustang, faster, and cheaper than the Camaro. And if the Camaro's are built, the tradition will continue. Just like the Z06 vs. Ford GT, the only person in there right mind, who will pay over 100k more, for a car that doesn't outperform the Z06, are diehard, and millionare Ford fanatics, while Chevrolet will sell a ton of very fast, very cool Z06's, Ford built the Ford GT, and got embarassed as Chevy built an equal car, for less than half the price tag. Basically, Ford's are too expensive to make fast, why do you think that in the Hot Rod Top 10 Fastest Street Cars in America, there we're like 3 Mustangs, all running Chevrolet motors? If I we're a Ford man, this would make Me cry. The fastest Mustang was running a Chevrolet motor, I mean come on.

 

From 93-02, The Z28 or SS was DROPKICKING the Stang GT, and usually was ahead of the Cobra. The "terminator" 03/04 Cobra wasn't really even a blip on the radar while Camaro was still being made, and GM did NOTHING to upgrade Camaro performance for the last several years. I think if GM had of been serious about keeping the Camaro around and production continued I think it likely there would have been an answer for the Cobra...

If GM builds this Camaro and it's sub 3600 lbs, with at least a 400hp LS2-type setup, it should compete well w/ current SRT-8 products (however if they get a significant upgrade like the 6.4l Hemi or whatever before the Camaro hits there will be trouble). It should also beat stock 03/04 Cobras handily (I'd think), and depending on the final weight may compete quite well with the GT500. Somebody said the GT500 was going to be ~3500 lbs, that's crap. I've been hearing 3800 at least with 3900+ not being out of the realm of possibility for the hardtop version (verts even more obviously).

If the Camaro really gets a 425 or better yet 450 hp setup it should easily compete quite well w/ the heavier 475hp GT500 unless that 475 is hardcore underrated. Of course with some quick mods that 475 is going to be a distant memory and the Camaro's (Hopefully...) significantly less weight will be all that gives it even a chance in a straight line without more significant mods than the GT500 will have...

 

I believe there is more wisdom in this statement than more people on this boad may realize. I do believe that GM will have a top Camaro car that will be competitive directly to the GT500.

 

I already conceeded that the Z06 and GTO were class leaders. HOWEVER, the SRT-8, isn't a competitor to the GTO. The SRT-8 cars are the full size cars, and the GTO is a mid size car. The GTO is in the 3 series, and G35 realm. The Impala SS would be the contender to the SRT-8 cars. The Impala SS loses that battle. Although, I agree the SRT-6 is in the same price range as a base Vette, is it a competitor? The Crossfire was meant to compete with the Audi TT, Nissan 350Z, Z4 (etc). Also, don't foget the SRT-10 vs. Silverado SS. I agree a good driver could determine a race between the SRT-4 vs. Colbalt. That one I will agree with.

I can't agree that GM is leading the performance pack overall though.

 

Sorry, but you're subscribing to some hardcore bias.

Viper vs Z06? its all about what you want. Viper is more of a track car. Z06(and I can feel the flames coming) is more of a street car.

SRT-8 vs GTO? WTF. Straight line acceleration is proving the SRT8s more than a hair ahead of GTO.

SRT-6 vs Vette? Who even compares a six to an eight?

SRT-4 vs SS Cobalt--this I know the least about, but what I do know is the SRT4 has a sixty HP advantage at the crank.