No my suggestion was that the target demographic for this car is a group that will spend 99% of its time on a federally and state regulated road, NOT a racetrack.

I honestly think GM did what it could to make it as light as possible and still meet a price point, and I'm with you in thinking that they didn't meet the target weight they wanted. BUT we have to live with that, and the target demographic won't notice the extra lbs.

 

You are likely correct, IMHO.

 

Sure, we have no choice but to live with it. The only choice we DO have is whether we write a check for it or we don't write a check for it.

Who exactly is the target demographic though? Really, I figured I might be pretty darned near the center of the bullseye when it came to that. And they sure missed the target with me.

 

Funny I thought the exact same thing. Yet they hit the target with me(so far).

Don't get me wrong there are things I'd LOVE for them to change (yes weight being one)... but they aren't significant enough for me not consider the purchase.

 

Um no. Those days are looooooong gone. Sorry to say.

 

How do you mean?

 

May I ask three small questions?

1) What is your basis for that statement?

2) Have you actually ever bought a new Camaro?

3) Are you going to buy this Camaro new?

'Cause I'm thinking, you know, people who actually buy new cars (like Charlie) are the people GM is aiming for. Especially those who have a history of buying new Camaros (like Charlie, like myself - I've bought a new 3rd gen and a new 4th gen, like others)

If GM alienates past multi-time Camaro buyers with this car, maybe just maybe something is not perfect with this car. If it is perfect for you, great, but see question 3.

 

See the reason i said my statement was because this camaro NEEDS to appeal to those who would have NEVER bought a camaro (IE me). The camaro community is what kept it going for the last few years of the 4th gen. Other than them the car appealed to no one.

PS. Yes I will buy one if the price is right (V8 Manual with some options < 30k). If the price is not right (over 30k, or the BASE is 29995.00 etc) then I will just pick up a used 05 or newer vette for high 20's.


Back to the original topic, Yes I think that the right driver could get a 5th gen to do that. Will it be common probably not, will it be easier with some mods, uh for flipping sure. Will 99% of the people who purchase one need to do that, No.

 

Yes, I agree the car needed to expand the scope of it's customer base.

Yes, I agree it needed to be a bit more friendly to the non hardcore enthusiast.

However, IMO this should be accomplished WITHOUT alienating that core group of customers. If you leave those guys out in the cold, if you can alienate your most hardcore buyers, where will you be when a bunch of the "new" people move on to the next thing that strikes their fancy?


With regard as to whether or not I'll buy it... I doubt it. I'll drive it, I'll kick the tires, I'll consider it, but a 4000lb car really doesn't appeal to me no matter what kind of power output it has. I was willing to spend up to about $45K to get the car I want. Unfortunately I don't think that car will be available at any price. I've already started looking at low mileage C6 ZO6s. For not that much more money, I can get a car much closer to what I'm looking for. It's a shame really, a Corvette just isn't "me".



And as for the original question, it makes for a cool picture but it's not really a big deal. It's simply a matter of having a soft rear setup with a relatively stiff front and sticky tires. I see stock BMWs do that all the time.

Oh and that inside tire most definitely makes a contribution to overall grip. Once in a while isn't really a problem but if you're doing it a lot, you probably need to take a look at why.

 

See, I still don't understand the logic in that statement. I mean why is alienating say, ME, for example, going to make this car more appealing to new/first time Camaro buyers? IMHO, what I'd want, would make this car more appealing to everyone.

And as far as appealing to people who have never bought a Camaro before (new or used), trust me, there is a whole wide world full of them. After all, it's been 6 years since the car ceased production, and the last few years of that, even the low volume Corvette outsold it. But I can't imagine that the things which might turn me off, would somehow simultaneously turn them on. How could they? Explain.

The thing that turns me off the most here, is this car's excess weight. Explain to me again, how that won't be a factor to new car buyers whether they've purchased a new Camaro before or not? Because I think it WILL be a factor in the decision to buy with many - and in a very big way. Maybe not to you or maybe not to 8Banger, but to lots of other prospective buyers. But then again, you two are on record as saying that you won't buy new if the V8 not under $30K, so in the end you two may not even buy at all.

I can't tell you how many people I know, who were willing to spend that amount and in fact, way more, if only the car wasn't so overweight. And I'm not talking internet posters, I'm talking people with cash in hand. Those buyers don't count? I think that they do - and I'm one of them.

Anyway, this is all semantics. I'm pretty sure that GM realizes that this particular car will soon be untenable in our current automotive market. I just hope enough of you buy to keep the marque alive.

 

Are you sure it would make it more appealing to the people that want it at a lower, competitive, price? It seems like it just comes down to balancing final vehicle weight and cost of production. All cars are growing in weigh with safety standards and whatever else, its not just camaro. I dont see it as alienating anyone, especially former camaro buyers. More like competing with the competition to draw in the most customers possible. If the strategy GM decides to go with doesnt meet all previous camaro buyers expectations, but draws in more new camaro buyers, theyll be able to live with that. If it flops and doesnt sale, then you will have a lot to raise a stink about.

To me, Im sure if they thought making it a 3300# carbon fiber, hydro formed aluminum framed, factory track car was the best solution, Im sure they would have went with that strategy.

Its going to be a great car to many people, but those that arent included in that group of "many" will have to deal with that. I do like the fact that you just want it to be a better car though.

 

The convertible 4cyl Solstice is 2860lbs. Save some weight with a hardtop, pick up over a thousand pounds by adding a v8 and two rear seats.

A Solstice Coupe with a v8 is more likely....but that's a Corvette.

GM isn't making a cheap lightweight Camaro, and they never will.

 

Except Corvette.

Except the new STi (the new EVO gained A LOT of weight however)

Except (if we are to believe the early info) the upcoming Mustang.

Except (if we are to believe the early info) the upcoming Nissan Z.

I'm sure there are others. That's just off the top of my head.

Camaro hasn't become overweight simply because it is new, more powerful or chock full of convenience gadgets and safety features. It is overweight because it is based on a big heavy sedan platform. The cars I mentioned above, for the most part, aren't.

 

I'm not advocating that Camaro should be more expensive. Not at all.

But can I tell you something? The fact that the new Camaro will be so porky IS NOT going to save anyone one nickel. Not you, not me, not anyone. That is such a myth and time to pierce that right now. It's not heavy because GM cut corners to a reach a price point, essentially trading pounds for dollars. It's heavy because the architecture used for it is inherently HEAVY. Once Zeta was chosen, it was a done deal. And here's the kicker. The Zeta sedans it was supposed to share cost with, (the whole business point of using Zeta), and make it economical to build, are gone. So, using this large sedan architecture, not only burdens it with excessive weight, it may even end up burdening it with excessive build cost - it has to. What a clusterfark.

So again, how does that draw in new buyers?

 

I in my entire life never imagined that I would even consider a camaro, they where always so ugly I would never be seen in one based on that alone. They where sooo uncomfortable, and they have been plagued by (and maybe unjustly) problems (9 bolt rear ends, window motors, leaking t-tops, optispark).

Beginning of 07 I told myself that when i graduate I'm going to buy myself a muscle car because I'm finally financially secure enough that I can splurge. I started looking into a mustang, old 60/70's cars, and other RWD V8's and found the new camaro. I'm now fanatic enough that my wife and coworkers are tired of hearing about this new bit of news or that new picture.

For a bit of counter point to that, If the new camaro looked more like the 4th gen, I would probably still be looking for an old challenger or duster to drop a new built small block into.

Seems like its done its job to me....