The Competition
10-23-2006 | 03:00 AM
#106
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 567
From: Mission, TX
Re: The Competition
No one has bothered to post up "evidence" because it is such common knowledge how they perform that this thread is completely ridiculous.
Here's a 13.5 from a auto convertable and a 13.13 from a auto hardtop (different day I think): http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ro_ss_feature/
That one also mentions the 12.89 Evan Smith got from a stock Z28, they also ran a 01 I think it was SS to a 12.9 in slightly worse conditions.
Ah, this snippet (from a mustang mag) mentions that one: http://www.stangbangers.com/01Bullitt_Article2c.jpg
Here is one where Popular Mechanics only managed a 13.4 w/ a SS, but got a WS6 (same darn car) to a 13.1, apparently all in the launch: http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...6.html?page=11
I have a HotRod article around here somewhere on a 98 Z28 test I can scan if I can find it again, they ran a 13.3.
Go to LS1tech.com and search for stock quarter times, you'll find ALOT of people running low/mid 13s and a few in the 12s stock, those that run closer to mid 13s usually do so w/ a less than stellar 60 foot time. (their search seems to be broken at the moment or I'd link to one of the stock times threads I seem to recall seeing)
Of course I think it's silly to say all LS1s run 12.89s just from some article, but low 13s are definitely what they should run in good conditions w/ a good driver. A 350Z in the same conditions will not touch that, they will be something like a half second+ slower, they are a average high 13/low 14 second car... A half second (and an average of several MPH) beating in the quarter mile is a straight up beat down. The 350Z in the same condtions w/ an equal driver in each does not contend w/ a LS1 in the straight line. More like an LT1.
I'm not spending more than the 5 minutes searching it took to find these to prove this crap to someone who is a self-proclaimed expert on LS1 performance, yet is somehow shocked by the near everyday occurence of stock low 13s. You want more you find it yourself. Or you could just bury your head in another motortrend and continue on w/ the 14.0 1/4 mile BS.
Here's a 13.5 from a auto convertable and a 13.13 from a auto hardtop (different day I think): http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ro_ss_feature/
That one also mentions the 12.89 Evan Smith got from a stock Z28, they also ran a 01 I think it was SS to a 12.9 in slightly worse conditions.
Ah, this snippet (from a mustang mag) mentions that one: http://www.stangbangers.com/01Bullitt_Article2c.jpg
Here is one where Popular Mechanics only managed a 13.4 w/ a SS, but got a WS6 (same darn car) to a 13.1, apparently all in the launch: http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...6.html?page=11
I have a HotRod article around here somewhere on a 98 Z28 test I can scan if I can find it again, they ran a 13.3.
Go to LS1tech.com and search for stock quarter times, you'll find ALOT of people running low/mid 13s and a few in the 12s stock, those that run closer to mid 13s usually do so w/ a less than stellar 60 foot time. (their search seems to be broken at the moment or I'd link to one of the stock times threads I seem to recall seeing)
Of course I think it's silly to say all LS1s run 12.89s just from some article, but low 13s are definitely what they should run in good conditions w/ a good driver. A 350Z in the same conditions will not touch that, they will be something like a half second+ slower, they are a average high 13/low 14 second car... A half second (and an average of several MPH) beating in the quarter mile is a straight up beat down. The 350Z in the same condtions w/ an equal driver in each does not contend w/ a LS1 in the straight line. More like an LT1.
I'm not spending more than the 5 minutes searching it took to find these to prove this crap to someone who is a self-proclaimed expert on LS1 performance, yet is somehow shocked by the near everyday occurence of stock low 13s. You want more you find it yourself. Or you could just bury your head in another motortrend and continue on w/ the 14.0 1/4 mile BS.
You said what I wanted to, but alas...Im too lazy to cut n paste, etc
This just goes to show what a bad rap the LS1s get sometimes just because of some underrated HP/TQ numbers & stupid journalists who cant drive if their lives depended on it. lol my GF can run low 13s all day in a stocker
10-23-2006 | 12:39 PM
#108
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
Re: The Competition
You don't need to bother unless you really want to post them...however, where were you and all the others 3 or 4 pages ago??? 
Tell you what, looks like later LS1s can run into the low 13’s and even break into the high 12’s…why don’t we just leave it at that so that all those who think the only performance measure of a vehicle is a ¼ mile ET can rest easy. I’ve also no doubt that the next Camaro will also do well in the ¼ against its competition.
What I hope people here (and at GM) understand, however, is that a lot of people who buy cars don’t give a rat’s *** about ¼ mile times and will never go anywhere near a drag strip…those people care about slalom times and g-force and 0-60 and 0-100 and 0-150 times and the overall balance and composure of a car at speed and they care about getting a quality car for their money…they care about whether the leather on their seats or the carpet on the floorboard will wear out before they run out of payments and they care about whether there will be a major recall on their vehicle.
Regardless of exactly “what” vehicles will be the competition for the next Camaro (which was, after all the actual subject of this thread); GM needs to realize that there are a lot of vehicles in the upper $20K to $40K range (which is where I suspect the next Camaro will be), that have a lot to offer for the money both in terms of overall performance and quality.
Tell you what, looks like later LS1s can run into the low 13’s and even break into the high 12’s…why don’t we just leave it at that so that all those who think the only performance measure of a vehicle is a ¼ mile ET can rest easy. I’ve also no doubt that the next Camaro will also do well in the ¼ against its competition.
What I hope people here (and at GM) understand, however, is that a lot of people who buy cars don’t give a rat’s *** about ¼ mile times and will never go anywhere near a drag strip…those people care about slalom times and g-force and 0-60 and 0-100 and 0-150 times and the overall balance and composure of a car at speed and they care about getting a quality car for their money…they care about whether the leather on their seats or the carpet on the floorboard will wear out before they run out of payments and they care about whether there will be a major recall on their vehicle.
Regardless of exactly “what” vehicles will be the competition for the next Camaro (which was, after all the actual subject of this thread); GM needs to realize that there are a lot of vehicles in the upper $20K to $40K range (which is where I suspect the next Camaro will be), that have a lot to offer for the money both in terms of overall performance and quality.
10-23-2006 | 10:09 PM
#109
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 29
From: New Orleans
Re: The Competition
to start off here is my list of 4th gens
1998 a4 z28
1999 a4 z28
2000 m6 SS still have
2002 m6 hawk still have wife's car
2002 a4 formula still have ,drag car
and a 1982 TA still have
my 1998 z was headed to be my drag car, my 1999 i bought in oct of 2002 and it was bone stock.this car was to be my cruise around town car. it had 15,000 miles on it when i picked it up. it was a 3:23 a4 car. no computer work done, it even had stock air lid. i must say i was very surprised the one and only time i brought it to the drag strip. these times are with the goodyear gsc.
so you asked for timeslips here they are car was number 804
ps i would rather read articles on 1/4 mile times from car craft or hot rod, not toyotatrend. i do have a motor trend that posts the 1/4 mile times feb 1998 issue z28 13.7 and the formula 13.8. i also found a car and driver feb 1999 that also reported a 13.8 from a z28.
1998 a4 z28
1999 a4 z28
2000 m6 SS still have
2002 m6 hawk still have wife's car
2002 a4 formula still have ,drag car
and a 1982 TA still have
my 1998 z was headed to be my drag car, my 1999 i bought in oct of 2002 and it was bone stock.this car was to be my cruise around town car. it had 15,000 miles on it when i picked it up. it was a 3:23 a4 car. no computer work done, it even had stock air lid. i must say i was very surprised the one and only time i brought it to the drag strip. these times are with the goodyear gsc.
so you asked for timeslips here they are car was number 804
ps i would rather read articles on 1/4 mile times from car craft or hot rod, not toyotatrend. i do have a motor trend that posts the 1/4 mile times feb 1998 issue z28 13.7 and the formula 13.8. i also found a car and driver feb 1999 that also reported a 13.8 from a z28.
Last edited by lorcinls1; 10-23-2006 at 10:12 PM.
10-24-2006 | 01:11 AM
#110
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
Re: The Competition
Guys I think this thread is beat to death. It was supposed to be about the 2009 Camaro and competition and we end up with LS1 vs. 350Z.
First of all Mr. Nashville is obvioulsy a big fan of the 350Z and has made numerous attempts to defend it against a lot of pro-Camaro rhetoric. His biggest mistake is one I've seen quite a bit. Don't quote magazine articles to make your point. That just doesn't garner a lot of respect on a board like this. Not to mention the results were somewhat off from what we've seen posted lately. Be that as it may it's obvious he feels the 350Z is plenty of competition for the LS1. We've examined the cost issue, and the handling issue and its pretty clear the drag racing issue is resolved. I don't think we're going to change anyones mind here. We could all post time slips and even video from a road course showing any kind of results and depending on what side you like that's who you'll see as the best or proof things are skewed.
While I will say this the 350Z is a spectacular car that doesn a lot very well and if the 09 Camaro is as competitive as the LS1 F-bodies have been with it we'll be in great shape.
First of all Mr. Nashville is obvioulsy a big fan of the 350Z and has made numerous attempts to defend it against a lot of pro-Camaro rhetoric. His biggest mistake is one I've seen quite a bit. Don't quote magazine articles to make your point. That just doesn't garner a lot of respect on a board like this. Not to mention the results were somewhat off from what we've seen posted lately. Be that as it may it's obvious he feels the 350Z is plenty of competition for the LS1. We've examined the cost issue, and the handling issue and its pretty clear the drag racing issue is resolved. I don't think we're going to change anyones mind here. We could all post time slips and even video from a road course showing any kind of results and depending on what side you like that's who you'll see as the best or proof things are skewed.
While I will say this the 350Z is a spectacular car that doesn a lot very well and if the 09 Camaro is as competitive as the LS1 F-bodies have been with it we'll be in great shape.
10-24-2006 | 02:58 AM
#111
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1
Re: The Competition
I really hate to be controversial here, 
but…
I’m not sure what you are basing your boast on but a quick search resulted in the following…
2003 350Z 0-60 in 5.4 sec and ¼ mile in 14.1 @ 101.0 MPH
2002 Camaro Z/28 0-60 in 5.5 sec and, ¼ mile in 14.0 @ 101.3 MPH
2002 Camaro SS 0-60 in 5.3 sec and ¼ mile in 13.7 @ 105.6 MPH
Now, people can argue about a tenth of a second here and a mile-per-hour there but most published performance testing on the 350Z and the Z28/SS show that the 305Z was certainly on par with the Z/28 and SS. Also, on a purely personal note, since I’ve owned a 2000 Z/28 and a 2004 350Z and have autocrossed and hot-lapped both I can attest that the Z gets around both the autocross course and the track faster than my Z/28 did.
By the end of 2008; the next Z will be out and (it is at least rumored) that it will be in the area of 400HP so performance should be on par with the next Camaro - of course, since neither car is in production yet; who knows how they’ll stack up then.
Now, whether the Z or the G35 are aimed at the same market as the Camaro/Mustang/Challenger is a matter of opinion but I say no, they aren’t…I’m sure some buyers will cross-shop but I suspect you would find that the typical Camaro buyer has different demographics than the typical Z or G35 buyer.
but…I’m not sure what you are basing your boast on but a quick search resulted in the following…
2003 350Z 0-60 in 5.4 sec and ¼ mile in 14.1 @ 101.0 MPH
2002 Camaro Z/28 0-60 in 5.5 sec and, ¼ mile in 14.0 @ 101.3 MPH
2002 Camaro SS 0-60 in 5.3 sec and ¼ mile in 13.7 @ 105.6 MPH
Now, people can argue about a tenth of a second here and a mile-per-hour there but most published performance testing on the 350Z and the Z28/SS show that the 305Z was certainly on par with the Z/28 and SS. Also, on a purely personal note, since I’ve owned a 2000 Z/28 and a 2004 350Z and have autocrossed and hot-lapped both I can attest that the Z gets around both the autocross course and the track faster than my Z/28 did.
By the end of 2008; the next Z will be out and (it is at least rumored) that it will be in the area of 400HP so performance should be on par with the next Camaro - of course, since neither car is in production yet; who knows how they’ll stack up then.
Now, whether the Z or the G35 are aimed at the same market as the Camaro/Mustang/Challenger is a matter of opinion but I say no, they aren’t…I’m sure some buyers will cross-shop but I suspect you would find that the typical Camaro buyer has different demographics than the typical Z or G35 buyer.
You my friend, are an idiot. You have no idea what your talking about. The 350z is around a full second slower than a
LS1 powered vehicle. You don't have to believe me. But the dyno numbers do not lie.
What an average stock LS1 dyno's.
An LS1 with just a lid.
Here goes a stock 350Z.
Another stock 350Z.
A stock G35.
Now do you see why there is such a big difference in performance between the two vehicles. Don't get me wrong. The 350z is nice for what is it. And its also nice that its rwd. But the LS1 is in a completely different league when compared to the 350z in raw speed.
Last edited by AlmostFamous; 10-24-2006 at 03:02 AM.
10-24-2006 | 10:32 AM
#112
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 270
From: Minneapolis
Re: The Competition
The above dyno graphs explain clearly how my N/A 1997 Dinan M3 (3.2L) could be very competitive against similarly modded 350Z's, and beat them as often as I lost to them, since it's clearly a drivers race with those two cars. I put down 221hp and 224ft/lbs on a dynojet.
It also clearly explains why I got my a$$ HANDED to me every time I raced an LS1 with that car.
What was said above is correct, a full second and 5-10mph in the quarter is a straight up and down a$$ kicking.
So, either Robert Nashville has never actually 'raced' anything in his life, or he never really owned an LS1. It's one or the other here.....maybe he's just using the LS1 farce about having owned one to have an excuse to sit and argue about his beloved Nissans all d@mn day long. It's pretty clear to anyone on this board, that this is all he ever does, and it's apparently his sole purpose of posting here. Are you sure you didn't have the 3800 V6? I know you could get them with the fancy wheels and ground effects packages.
It also clearly explains why I got my a$$ HANDED to me every time I raced an LS1 with that car.
What was said above is correct, a full second and 5-10mph in the quarter is a straight up and down a$$ kicking.
So, either Robert Nashville has never actually 'raced' anything in his life, or he never really owned an LS1. It's one or the other here.....maybe he's just using the LS1 farce about having owned one to have an excuse to sit and argue about his beloved Nissans all d@mn day long. It's pretty clear to anyone on this board, that this is all he ever does, and it's apparently his sole purpose of posting here. Are you sure you didn't have the 3800 V6? I know you could get them with the fancy wheels and ground effects packages.
10-24-2006 | 11:04 AM
#113
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,028
From: Chicago, IL
Re: The Competition
the LS1 f-body clearly has the win in the accelleration and price department.. but i think the 350z would have better handling, considering the IRS, and the fact that it's lighter and smaller and sits lower
in a road race? the fbody would probably win.. in auto-x? it'd be darn close
but for the money.. the fbody has a big advantage imo.. and is the better bang for your buck in all departments
in a road race? the fbody would probably win.. in auto-x? it'd be darn close
but for the money.. the fbody has a big advantage imo.. and is the better bang for your buck in all departments
10-24-2006 | 11:18 AM
#114
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
Re: The Competition
So, either Robert Nashville has never actually 'raced' anything in his life, or he never really owned an LS1. It's one or the other here.....maybe he's just using the LS1 farce about having owned one to have an excuse to sit and argue about his beloved Nissans all d@mn day long. It's pretty clear to anyone on this board, that this is all he ever does, and it's apparently his sole purpose of posting here. Are you sure you didn't have the 3800 V6? I know you could get them with the fancy wheels and ground effects packages.
You don’t like what I have to say…fine. You don’t like my sources of information…fine. You want to argue points like an adult instead of a child…I’m up for that. Even if you want to hold a different opinion that’s based only on emotion…that’s your right. But when you call me liar that’s not fine.
Not that you deserve the effort but I’ll make the same offer to you I made to Ray86IROC a few pages ago although I don't expect you to follow through - people who spout off and attack other people personally usually don’t want an inconvenient fact to get in the way of their opinions.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 10-24-2006 at 11:40 AM.
10-24-2006 | 04:02 PM
#115
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 270
From: Minneapolis
Something tells me you wouldn't have 90% of your posts if you weren't arguing all day about Nissans on a GM forum!!
I've got better things to do with my time than you apparently do, other than sit around and armchair bench race all day and fight over Nissans. Childishness, is spending all day, every day trying to prove your opinion on the interweb. Best of luck with all that!
I've got better things to do with my time than you apparently do, other than sit around and armchair bench race all day and fight over Nissans. Childishness, is spending all day, every day trying to prove your opinion on the interweb. Best of luck with all that!
10-24-2006 | 04:37 PM
#116
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
Something tells me you wouldn't have 90% of your posts if you weren't arguing all day about Nissans on a GM forum!!
I've got better things to do with my time than you apparently do, other than sit around and armchair bench race all day and fight over Nissans. Childishness, is spending all day, every day trying to prove your opinion on the interweb. Best of luck with all that!
I've got better things to do with my time than you apparently do, other than sit around and armchair bench race all day and fight over Nissans. Childishness, is spending all day, every day trying to prove your opinion on the interweb. Best of luck with all that!
Is it that you have better things to do or is it, as I suspected, that you simply aren't one to let facts get in the way of your opinion?
I suspect it’s the latter rather than the former.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 10-24-2006 at 04:58 PM.
10-24-2006 | 08:53 PM
#117
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,711
From: The Golden State
I really can't believe that there's a arguement going on that has degenerated into posting timeslips and dyno results to prove a LS1 is quicker than a 350Z. 
Look guys, LS1 Camaros ran about 5.2 to 60, and a click below 13 in the quarter. 350Zs run about 5.5 and mid 13s. If you're at a 1/4 mile track, the Camaro is going to win almost every time... by a healthy margin. That's what it was made for. On the streets, however, the 350Z will be no farther behind than the Camaro's rear quarter panel, so the idea that a LS1 would "smoke" a 350Z is far from true.
On an autocross course, the 350Z is in it's element, and it will likely carve up a Camaro.
The 350Z is a 2 passenger sports car with a great suspension system, great balence, and a good tossable size. The 4th gen Camaro is essentially an engine in a box... or a doorstop.
Point is, arguing about what is faster is pretty pointless since both have areas where they excell at. May as well pit a Viper against a CTSv.
Not defending the Nissan, but I have lived in LA, where racing imports on the road is something of a area past time.
Look guys, LS1 Camaros ran about 5.2 to 60, and a click below 13 in the quarter. 350Zs run about 5.5 and mid 13s. If you're at a 1/4 mile track, the Camaro is going to win almost every time... by a healthy margin. That's what it was made for. On the streets, however, the 350Z will be no farther behind than the Camaro's rear quarter panel, so the idea that a LS1 would "smoke" a 350Z is far from true.
On an autocross course, the 350Z is in it's element, and it will likely carve up a Camaro.
The 350Z is a 2 passenger sports car with a great suspension system, great balence, and a good tossable size. The 4th gen Camaro is essentially an engine in a box... or a doorstop.
Point is, arguing about what is faster is pretty pointless since both have areas where they excell at. May as well pit a Viper against a CTSv.
Not defending the Nissan, but I have lived in LA, where racing imports on the road is something of a area past time.
11-06-2006 | 12:39 AM
#119
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 273
when reading this and hearing the word competition i assume he was referring to what model of cars would one looking at a camaro also consider...alot of you seem to immediately think all people want a fast, cheap car
this is not the case, and that is why the camaro failed the first time around...hp numbers dont make ALOT of people by cars, that is a fact*and thats why the mustang stopped the hp war back in 93* as far as competition*i believe the following would compete with a fully loaded camaro in terms of price/performance*, and many people considering a camaro would also consider:
challenger
mustang
g35
skyline gtr(ive heard engines from v6 twin turbo to v8 pushing 400hp)
evo
wrx
eclipse
^^^all of these cars i have heard compared by actual people, who have said i think in a few years i want this but, am considering these, i even heard someone say i want an eclipse, but also want a new mustang gt^^^
*im not a fan of all of these cars, and wouldnt consider anything but a few of them* to tell you the truth, i have also outgrown camaros*my next daily driver will be a viper, my wife wants an ss to replace our g6 and the camaro would be the new family car*wifes due in december*...thats why the car must be backseat friendly atleast as much as most of the cars mention above, or else me and i think alot of other people will go elsewhere...anyone disagree?
this is not the case, and that is why the camaro failed the first time around...hp numbers dont make ALOT of people by cars, that is a fact*and thats why the mustang stopped the hp war back in 93* as far as competition*i believe the following would compete with a fully loaded camaro in terms of price/performance*, and many people considering a camaro would also consider:challenger
mustang
g35
skyline gtr(ive heard engines from v6 twin turbo to v8 pushing 400hp)
evo
wrx
eclipse
^^^all of these cars i have heard compared by actual people, who have said i think in a few years i want this but, am considering these, i even heard someone say i want an eclipse, but also want a new mustang gt^^^
*im not a fan of all of these cars, and wouldnt consider anything but a few of them* to tell you the truth, i have also outgrown camaros*my next daily driver will be a viper, my wife wants an ss to replace our g6 and the camaro would be the new family car*wifes due in december*...thats why the car must be backseat friendly atleast as much as most of the cars mention above, or else me and i think alot of other people will go elsewhere...anyone disagree?
Last edited by JP2005; 11-06-2006 at 12:48 AM.
