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Click the second link, and go down to the yellow paper!

 

Don't you just love it when people tell others what they can and cannot do just because the complainer doesn't happen to like something?

A couple of points:

1) I saw the comments about using someone else's images without their consent. Clearly, that may constitute a violation of intellectual property laws. At the same time, people saw fit to post copyrighted eBay policy on this sight without gaining consent from eBay? Pot? Kettle? Black?

2) The word "fraud" is being thrown around very loosely without having any idea whatsoever what the legal notion of "fraud" is. Can you say "defamation of character"?

3) I am unclear as to what the issue is. Is it wrong for buyers to be willing to pay extra for a vehicle that has a low VIN because the buyer sees value in that? I don't see the value, but there are many people who do.

4) Is it wrong for a seller to sell something that has yet to be produced and something they don't own yet? If it is, looks like we will have to send the Justice Department to the Chicago Board of Trade since that is the market where most commodity futures are traded. Who knew they were breaking the law for over 100 years?

5) What is the noble goal here? Is the goal to "protect" those who have more money than sense or is it to try to regulate the price of new Camaros so posters can get a low VIN Camaro without having to pay extra? Clearly, if the goal is the former and not the latter, then I fully expect to hear a "hew and cry throughout the land" regarding the taxation on stupidity known as State Lotteries.

There is an apt quote from an early 60's movie "The Americanization of Emily". I don't remember it word-for-word, but it goes something like, "Save us from those with good intentions because it is the rest of who get trampled."


Contrarian viewpoints aside, I would not pay extra for a low VIN car. When the 5th gen cars are released, if the current market price is too high, then I will wait for supply and demand corrections that result in a more reasonable price.

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that most of us are tired of everytime a car comes out the greedy little leeches in the business ooze from the cracks to try and get theirs. Many of us myself included have had very bad experiences with dealerships screwing people with deposits on cars that have not been produced and are wanting to keep that from happening again.

Ebay is the easiest thing for us to make a difference because it allows us to communicate directly to the sleezy car dealerships already trying to squeeze money from people just so later they can charge them an enormous mark up on a car.

The point here is that the car isn't for sale yet and won't be for a minimum of two more years. Here are people selling something on ebay that is not only not in production but it is not even guaranteed that they will get their place in line.

Before anyone even says "yeah but you bought the rights," I have this reply, I put money down and signed papers to be the 2nd in line at a local dealership for the GT-500. We wrote up a contract and even had a price agreed on that was satisfactory to me. When the time came for me to order the car I went in picked the colors and also the interior options. My car was ordered, and more money put down. well let me tell ya something, come time for my car to show up and the dealership tells me that even though I was in line for the car and had money down another buyer had offered more for the car and they were giving me first right to counter and refuse. Bull****!!! I had a contract with an agreed set ammount and had money down. The car was mine legally as per our contract, and guess what they did, sold the damn thing out from under me, my down payment...well that is another story but they are having a hard time finding any record of anything...I guess it is better to sell one car for 20 over sticker than to sell a man a car every 3 years for life.

Ebay, well I have had my experiences with fraud and everything else in between, I am just sick and tired of it and it is time we put our foot down and stop all this Barrett Jackson esque selling to the highest bidder crap...it is a damn muscle car not a Ferrari, there should be no reason to pay mark up or get screwed out of a regular production vehicle.



Wow I just read all of that and not only is it long but man do I sound jaded...

Uh so here is something happy It's official and atleast we have something to lookforward to , there now I feel better.

 

The seller put those chops up as if they were real cars. I didnt claim those words as my own. Infact I quoted them with a link to the actual policy for verification.

They were selling services where vehicles were sold. I gaurentee you some of those people thought they were bidding on the car, a deposit of the car that would be put toward the purchase, a down payment toward the car, or some variation. When you categorize your sale under the automotive section you expect to find vehicles for sale. Also when you see pictures in that Ad, it is expected that those pictures are of that car, or the same car. Neither were true.

Thats probably because you didnt read the thread. BTW lower VIN numbers as in real low VIN numbers are more valueable to collectors just like anything collectable. You are able to say I have the SS that was 25th off the line. Kinda like saying I have the original Declaration of Independence as opposed to I bought an exact copy that says the exact same thing and looks the part from the gift shop. Regaurdless these sellers arent selling low VIN numbers. They cant gaurentee that.

Comparing investors buying commoditys where risk is much more clear and common and Im assuming regulated by the media it is traded on, to the consumers purchase of a vehicle vehicle 2 years before delivery on ebay where feedback is time sensitive, as well as the amount of time the ad remains available is an interesting angle.

The goal was not to protect collectors from themselves nor was it to regulate prices. Low VIN numbers were not for sale here and if there had been a Low VIN sitting on the lot going for $200,000 it would not be the same issue. In fact, had it been GM on Ebay stating that we will aution the number 2 Camaro on Ebay it will be an SS etc etc has not been built yet, we expect no less than $200,000 not the same issue.

Thank you for your explination of supply and demand.

 

I edited my first post to report this for the presale policy that states the item must be made available within 30 days of end of the auction. because I think that is more clear cut.

Here is Chris and Jason's Pod cast covering this

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=469899

BTW Whitten that sucks!

 

UPDATE: message I sent them

Original Message Follows:
-------------------------

Form Message %22252% 030103
D_ID083120060850D_ID/W_ID78473317W_ID/S_ID000S_ID
Subject: FR=C00202 The problem you're having with fraud isn't listed
[230023826581 #MO $MO 30100B L97 !43401! 100900 ?01 -01 ]

User Feedback: 3
User State: ?01

Browser Info: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1;
.NET CLR 1.1.4322)

Buying and Finding > Fraud and payment concerns for buyers > The
problem
you're having with fraud isn't listed

Member or Item being reported: 230023826581 L97 $MO US !43401! 100900

Message: This seller is using pictures of a Camaro concept as well as 3
photo shop(doctored pics) to sell a place in line for a production car
that wont exist for another two years. They are selling a service(place
in line) 2 years from now using pictures that are not of that car,
rather than a vehicle today in your automotive auctions. Please take a
look at this.

 

Ebays responce

================================================

Thank you for writing to eBay in regard to this Camaro auction which
was
in violation of eBay policy.

I've reviewed the information you provided and can assure you that
we've
taken the appropriate actions in accordance with our listing policies.

Violations of eBay policies may result in a range of actions, including
listing cancellation, limits on account privileges, account suspension,
forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings, and loss of PowerSeller
status. Due to eBay's Privacy Policy, we cannot share specific
information about the other member's account or the actions we have
taken.

For more information about our listing policies, go to:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidenc...-policies.html

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Elijah

 

You're doing the right thing. Some people on this board would tell you that you dont have the right to tell someone not to shoot you in the face.

If someone has more money than brains they know how to get in contact with a dealer. Getting these ads pulled sends a message directly to the asses responsible that customers do not want this.

 

As a community shouldn't we keep track of the dealers who are doing this? We can really help eachother out this way.

 

If you guys really feel upset about this contact your general attorney for your state if the dealer is in that state and tell them about it. also most stated requires a dealer to have a dealer licence you can contact your local dmv and report this to them so the appropriate actions can be taken if they have violated and laws.

 

Thank you

Well if they are on ebay, and have a dealership then I would imagine it is likely they would have a dealer license aside from that one guy who bought his place and line and resold it WITH chop pics. that was pulled down btw. Aside from that it MAY be a loophole as they technically are selling the place in line not the car or even money that goes toward the car. I dont know the law or have time and money to go after someone who is not likely to scam me personally. On the flipside this is the dealers livelyhood. Im not sure what laws they are breaking but I just think this is wrong. Are there other laws they might possibly be breaking?

We could do the black list thing, but the problem I see with that is we would post it here. Noone here, I hope, would be stupid enough to fall for this anyway. It would seem to me it would be preaching to the chior. We all know as Jason and Chris said in their Podcast you could put money down for 1st place in line on a Z28 Convertable low vin, and the first car through the door might be a V6 etc, or worse the cars get allocated to a dealer who didnt pull this first and you paid for nothing. Your dealers allocation of Camaros might not come till later. It might be a good idea, but would it be informing people or would it be talking to ourselves?

Ill be honest guys, using Ebays policys seemed like the easiest way to go about it to try to minimize them screwing people who dont realize they are not bidding on the car, a low VIN number or even to be the first to own the car as they could be allocated to other dealers first. They are not bidding on a V8 because if GM decides the first car the dealers get are V6's then thats what they deal with.

It is clear cut that the car will not be available within 30 days of close of the auction and is violating Ebays Pre-Sale policy. The bidding is on Ebay and that is one of their regulations which can not be argued.

They also responded to the email using the chops of a concept to sell a place in line for a production model violates their policy as previously posted. Unfortunately I dont know how they feel about using the concept itself to sell a place in line for a production vehicle because I lumped that in with the same email.

Bottom line I dont think its right, and this was the easiest way to deal with that I could think of. I dont think anyone here would fall for it.

 

dude you spell worse than me

 

im a horrible speller when i type and im to lazy to back space.


ill go clean it up.

 

The bottom line is will it may not be illegal, its definetly irresponsible.

Just as in what was posted above, "Well someone paid more for your car then you did. Sorry." Or the ever popular, "Well there are only a few of these out for the next ten minutes so it cost ten thousand extra."

Even if you're dumb enough to fall for that you're smart enough to get their number out of the phonebook. Id rather they didnt advertise this as though it were standard practice.