Are you sure about that? I could swear the Mustang II was smaller than the foxbody.

 

You are correct. Mustang II was approximately 4 inches shorter than the 80's Fox-body.

The 5th Gen Camaro is primed to be the second smallest of the 5 generations, but apparently this isn't good enough and sales will undoubtedly tank. This goes against all evidence and pure logic to the contrary.

 

The Mustang II was a failure because of it's complete lack of performance, a terrible reliability record, and the fact that most people saw it as a glorified econobox Pinto (which it was). It was like taking a Ford Focus, tarting it up a little and then selling it as a Mustang. Adding to the problem was the exploding gas tank issue that got major coverage in the media in the 1970s and Ford's chronic rust problems they got sued for.

I didn't mean for this thread to get argumentative. I believe the Camaro should have been smaller, that is all. The Porsche 911 Turbo and the BMW 3 series are both small with a back seat and they are great cars. I'm not saying Camaro should be like Porsche in any way, but it shows that GM could have gone a smaller route and built other cars, albeit compact sized on the same platform.

Having said all of this I think the Camaro will be far from a market failure. It just won't be as big a success as it could have been, all because GM wanted to build a few Police cars.

 

Actually, even though the "II" is looked upon as a joke now, they were actually pretty successful cars back then. Where's ProudPony at, he'd tell you. The "Right Car, Right Time" as I believe the slogan for the car went was actually just that for Ford.

And the many more RWD Chevys we will see. I think the LX worked out to be quite a bit more than "a few police cars" for Chrysler.

 

Yes, you are right. The Mustang II did sell in large numbers. It was just not liked as well. As for Camaro, we can only wait and see.

 

Aw come on now... who didn't love the King Cobra?

 

If this is true, I can not tell you how disappointed I am about this. The correct size and weight are extremely critical to how interested I will be in this car. I have been one of the banner wavers begging for a smaller, lighter, Camaro. I think the new mustang is too big and too heavy as is the challenger (assuming the concept car dimensions are representative). I think the 4-th gen cars were too big also. I have modified the crap out of my 95 to improve the handling. It does handle well, but there is no way to get rid of that big car feel and big car response. I really was hoping for something better this time around.

I hate to say it, but I am starting to see some old school GM showing through again. I mean GM is notorious for launching “mean too” versions of its competitor’s previous models, way late to the party. This appears to heading down the same path.

The competition has a retro exterior; The new Camaro will too
The competition has a retro interior, The new Camaro will too (apparently)
The competition has turned their ponies into Clydesdales; Camaro, once again follows suite.
Don’t even get me started on the late part.

I think the better approach would be to attack the competition with a meaner, leaner, modern pony car (one that is true to the definition). Oh well, maybe they will get it right in the next generation.

GM, IF YOU ARE LISTENING, I WANT A PONY NOT A CLYDESDALE!!!!!

 

The thing is - we don't even know what the car will be yet!!! We can guess all we want, but the folks that drove the concepts have said repeatedly that it feels like a Camaro - so why the doom and gloom?

And the word "modern" is the sticking point here, too. I've shown people the Camaro concept and the '67 side-by-side and not one person thinks the new car is retro on the outside! So right there, is a modern exterior - and we're talking man-on-the-street, not car guys. Modern also can include such things as five star crash ratings all around, 30 mpg highway, displacemet on demand and IRS and those things will take away from the ideal of a tiny car that handles like a Lotus. It's not happening - ever - physics and economics won't let it.

 

Only if the bigger displacement doesn't have forced induction as well
Given the same induction the bigger engine will always make more power.

As for the LS7 in a 4th gen. I beleive that was just to promote the LS7 crate motor.

And the heavy curb weight of the upcoming Camaro and people saying they won't buy a muscle car if it weighs close to 4000 lbs. Do realize that the original musclecars were quite heavy.A fully loaded 70 LS6 chevelle was close to 4000lbs as were Buick GS's, 442's,Roadrunners,Chargers. Even a hemi 'cuda was no lightweight.
Even with the weight the new camaro will look awesome and should be able to run deep 12's bone stock which would make it the fastest regular production camaro ever.
The same thing with the Shelby. People put it down. Even Mustang guys. You can say what you want about it. but its the fastest production mustang EVER MADE. The upcoming GT500KR will have 40 more hp.

 

My 1968 Firebird weighed in at 3340lbs. Camaro is not a true muscle car. It is a pony car, which was much smaller and ended up eventually outselling the larger GTOs and Chevelles in performance versions. There is no market for large cars as they were in the 1970s any more. GM refuses to understand that so they prioritized yet another large car chassis. That will be an expensive mistake.

 

You are right about the camaro not being a true muscle car.Accually a true muscle car has a big block also. Back in the muscle era a small block motor was just a base engine and not considered anything special at all.
Chevelles,GTO's and the like weren't considered large cars back in the day. They were considered mid-size.
As there not being a market more a heavy Camaro, Look at the GT500. It's 3900lbs and people are STILL paying $14-$20k over sticker.My cousin just paid $53k for one.Even the regular GT's are fairly heavy and I read in Hot Rod a few months ago that the Mustang plant couldn't build them fast enough to keep up with orders.

 

Is that all that really matters? As long as it runs 12's - it doesn't matter how big it is or how much it weighs? We're talking about a Camaro right? And then you reference some 38 year old, 4,000 lbs cars, which weren't even in Camaro's class, to validate it all?

Frankly, that sort of talk upsets me. Especially on a Camaro enthusiast website. Because my ideal of Camaro contradicts all that. It sometimes makes me wonder if I am really out of step with how alot of people see the Camaro nowadays. I didn't always feel like the lone heretic in the woods. For years (decades actually), I was in total lock step with my Camaro bro's --- when it came to discussing our fast, little, stylish coupe.

Your comments are neither surprising to me nor isolated however. It's my experience lately, that the vast majority of Camaro enthusiasts I speak to, are none too pickey about what the Camaro is or isn't or what it should or shouldn't be. They think they're pickey, but really they're not. Yeah, they want fast. Yeah, they want RWD. But get beyond that, and you get a blank stare. Dangerous really, for the future of an enthusiast car. And many of those who I've met and known, who truly do/did have a focused vision of what Camaro should or should not be - have finally moved on and have essentially left the community. Pity. Many that is, not all though.

Unfortunately, the 100,000 or so people which GM hopes will buy this car annually, won't be comparing it's mass to a 1970 Road Runner or Buick GS. They'll be comparing it's mass to that of a sporty Civic Si or G37 or 3 series. Note, I said mass.

Anyway, this is all purely academic now. The 5th gen is what it is already. I wish the production car could have been smaller, and in fact, I'd suspect even some at GM wish that - but what's done is done.

 

I understand were you are coming from but if you got enough power weight does'nt matter as much.
I would never compare a camaro with any civic,G37, or 3 series. The civic is a sport compact while the G37 and BMW I would consider sport luxury while the camaro is modern muscle which should be only compared with mustangs and the upcoming challenger and the charger.
Pontiac was hoping the GTO could compete with BMW but failed misrably if they try to market the camaro in the BMW class it'll be the same.
For the most part a camaro guys and a BMW guys are different type of guy's.Even if the camaro is better than the BMW in every aspect those yuppie type people will still buy the BMW over the camaro.
Those type of people think that only knuckle draging gear heads would buy a Camaro.
Just like the knuckle drager I am I feel the BMWs are for yuppies and will never own one of those no matter how good of a car a BMW is.

 

Not true. I wouldn't want a 7,000 lbs, 800 hp Camaro. And weight kills handling, braking, mpg and everything else - regardless of "enough power".


I use them as a comparison because those are the sized sporty cars on the street today. So now you think that Camaro should be comparable to Charger?


That was all hyperbole. Drive a twin turbo 335i or M3 and then drive a GTO and tell me how they compare.


I'm a Camaro guy and I think BMW's are pretty awesome. And I know lots of people which think the same way as well. Honestly, I'm not sure someone can call themselves a true car enthusiast and not hold what BMW does with chassis dynamics, braking, steering, powertrain, etc., with EXTREME high regard.

 

You and me both, bro.