I am sure you are over exaggerating, but I don't think anyway is saying Chevy is purposefully making the Camaro heavier. It is just a difference of ideologies that results in different decisions.

For example:
Do we put more money: bigger engine? use AL fenders/hood/roof (like the Evo X)? interior quality? lightened suspension pieces?
How much sound deadening material should we use? Do we need that extra brace there?

Those are the types of decisions that will effect weight, performance and ultimately sales (too much performance, and not enough creature comforts can have a negative impact, just as too luxurious a car with diminished performance would).

And, I have to say, I do not envy the Camaro team one bit. Finding the right balance will be incredibly difficult, and there will be a group of people disappointed no matter what they do.

We are all just trying to share how we would build the car our way. And, unfortunately, that is different for just about everyone on here.

 

I'll leave it at this: To me, the Camaro was always a 4 seat corvette. The 3rd and 4th gens especially...were exactly that, compared with the Corvettes of their respective times. Slightly heavier, slightly larger, using less cutting edge tech to keep costs to where anybody can get one, but 4 seat Corvette none-the-less.

That's what I continue to look for, and what I don't feel is possible with a weight approaching 2 tons.

 

My point I guess is that 200lbs is not enough to stop me, or 75%+ of the people who buy Camaro's from buying it. Most people have no clue what cars weigh, and really don't care because any sports car handles way better than the truck or SUV they likely own. My stepdad drove my GTO and kept raving about how it handled like a go cart..and he is a mechanic who drieves cars every day. Yet everyone here would call the GTO a fat pig..even though it handles more than well enough for what I use it for. Ask the woman in her 20's what she thinks of her V6 Camaro being 200lbs to heavy and she will give you a blank stare. She bough her Camaro because she looks hot in it. Some people even see a heavier car as a safer one (another reason women like SUV's). Now I am not advocating making the Camaro heavy for the fun of it...but you cannot say that you want a Camaro to start in the low $20K's, have a 5 star crash rating, weight signifigantly less than the sedan it is based on, and knock on the Corvettes handling door. It just does not happen, and compromises will be made. GM is gonna strip every ounce they possibly can from the car I have no doubt about it. However at the end of the day, styling and desirability will sell the car, and people will live with the compromises made to get the Mustang at it's price point (i.e. crappy interior, bad gas milage).

I don't see many people pulling a Charile and stomping their feet out the dealership because the Camaro is 100-200lbs more than what they set as acceptable..

It is a Challenge because the V6 camaro has to get in at such a low price point. They are stuck decontenting Zeta, which was already faily decontented to begin with. Generally when you replace expensive parts with cheaper ones, they also weigh more.

I don't think GM is trying to design a 4 seat Corvette. I do think the Z28 when it comes out will be lighter than any other Camaro, and chase the base Corvette around...but it will also cost a tidy sum.

 

It's interesting to consider what makes people buy or not buy a car. My wife bought her Firebird mostly because it was sporty and had pop up headlights. She replaced it with a Ford Probe for pretty much the same reasons.

Would anyone stomp out of a dealership if they found the Camaro to be a couple of hundred pounds too heavy. Your guess is as good as mine. But if people start considering this car a pig, I suspect fewer people will even give it that much of a chance.


The whole point is not ONLY getting all the usual suspects to buy a Camaro, it's getting new buyers who would have never considered one before. It's getting people to say, "hey, I heard that was a nice car, I'd like to check it out before buying that Eclipse/Mustang/Genesis/1 Series/Challenger/Crossover I've had my eye on".

 

And that's the key for GM. If done properly, it will appeal to both the die hard Camaro dudes with mullets and old Bon Jovi cassettes who just want to lay rubber and leave everyone in the dust, as well as sophisticated automobile enthusiasts who don't listen to anything but the sound of the engine while they drive because they can pick the sweet spot of the engine and proper shift point by listening to it instead of looking at the tach.

I think GM can do it. A Camaro that's grown up but still down to earth. Everything I've ever read or heard about Holden (and most Australian car enthusiasts) is that they can be more passionate than Americans about what they drive. Being that the chasis design and engineering is done by them, I have a feeling the car is going to surprise alot of people here in the States with BMWs and Audis. I have also read that upper scale Holden sedans can run right with BMW 5 series sedans on the slalom and have very similar feel.

I think we can all agree this Camaro will be the best handling Camaro ever. Gone is the body on frame chasis. Gone is the solid rear axle. Gone are simple suspension geometry. Now we will have a unit-body with gobs more structural rigidity than any previous Camaro ever built. We will have a fully independent rear suspension. And we will have a car with advanced suspension and steering design. Lest we forget they've done away even with the throttle cable.

This will be a Camaro, but a Camaro for the 21st century.

 

Do you or have you driven an S-197 Mustang much (not saying the Camaro isn't going to be better, as Camaro's mission has always been hardcore - and well bigger tires in any event) The GT is fairly well planted on its feet and communative (could it be better - I suppose, but when your meeting a price point, there are comprimises that have to be made), and despite what GT500 detractors grossly think, the lesser cars are more balanced in this regard and its live axle isn't the hinderance magazine snobs make it out to be, unless anybody considers the 3rd and 4th gen f-body rear suspension to be utter crap - nor despite the fact that Ford has been able to make the live axle competitive in racing against the likes of porsche and BMW in production based racing - and no, these aren't one off tube frame cars employing super trick suspensions. You could say the GT suspension is a bit soft (its any every man's sort for sporty suspension), but otherwise performs fairly well (especially against weak sauce cars like the current mitsu eclipse).

So you can say the GT500 is some sort of one trick pony (although I've been told that they actually handle pretty well), but the GT most definetly isn't (unless driven by some sort of hack with a chip on thier shoulder).

 

I feel that it would be a bigger issue if the New Camaro "looked" bulky and heavy, reguardless if it weighed 200 lbs more or less, to most people.
As well as visibility behind the wheel, which an extra pillar doesn't help.
The high bathtub regs makes it harder to avoid looking heaftier too.

 

This is going in circles.

That crowd you refer to here is not a crowd that will be cross shopping these cars because of weight.

I commend you for relentlessly beating the "less weight" drum, but while weight is critically important, there are many other "in your face" considerations that most of the folks cross shopping "Eclipse/Mustang/Genesis/1 Series/Challenger/Crossover" will be looking at when they make there decision.

I honestly don't know how many "purest" performance enthusiasts there really are that "won't buy the car" if it comes in over 3600 lbs. The struggle that the Camaro team deals with is how to best balance all the considerations to appeal to the largest possible audience. If they happen to loose you ...because of weight ... and me ... because they come up with an unacceptable tonneau configuration .... but gain 100 other sales because they found another sweet spot ... I figure they'll consider it a wise decision.

 

You don't think they'd actually dis us like that, do you Art?


Anyways, here's a pretty neat Genesis video:

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2007/11...how-debut.html

 

yeah....But ask most women (or men for that matter) in their 20's (especially the type that buys things specifically for image) ANYTHING and you're likely to get a blank stare.....

Believe me I know, I'm 23

 

What do women in their 20's buy nowadays? I usually see them in fairly compact cars. Anecdotally, I usually see males driving V6 Mustangs.

 

Funny, I was just listening to Abacab and when I read your post and clicked on the link I was expecting to see Phil Collins.......

Which brings a question to mind..... Can Hyundai use that name?

 

I think they're intending to.

 

I see a lot of women in SUV's. Some may be moms, but a lot are also younger. The Camaro is not a terrible car for a mom if you have kids who don't need car seats, but are not adult sized. Safety is a big thing to women, and a lot of them equate bigger size to being safer. Also, I still see a ton of young women driving V6 Camaro's...and we all know that the 5th gen will be a lot easier car to live with than the 4th Gen was, no matter how much it weighs.

 

Honestly? I think we're both on the fringe as far as primary target demographics go. Part of it, I believe, is that we're both prepared to pay a little more to get what we want, but if that were engineered into the car, they wouldn't be able to hit the cost structure required to get the entry level number they need/want. BTW ... this is strictly my opinion and isn't based on any sort of "insider" information.