Are they eyeballing carbon limits like Europe? That'd put a damper on things real quick.

 

It sure as hell isn't going to help anything.

A 3750 lbs Mustang GT would suck. A 3925 lbs GTO would handle even worse than it already does. And a 3350 Z06, just wouldn't be a Z06.

 

Actually, I'm not familiar with the specifics.

But alot of the reason for the Gen V smallblock is to meet these new emissions. I wouldn't expect much of a specific output power increase from them...

 

It dampens the entire feeling of the car. Can you slap on huge sticky tires and still get a 3800lb car to grip with really high skidpad number (>.90)? Yep, you can. Can you get a 3800lb car to accelerate to 60 in 4.7-5.0 seconds? Yep you can.

But it's going to take longer to stop, it's going to have really bad transient handling (as in changing directions...any kind of non-constant corner or series of corners), it's going to handle like crap at low speeds (high-speed sweepers will feel the same regardless of how much it weighsif you can pull big skidpad #s), it'll get worse gas mileage, the suspension will have to be overly firm to keep the heavy body from bobbing all over the place, so the ride will suffer to maintain the same suspension geometry, etc etc and so on and so forth.

Handling FEEL is very important. If a car feels like a boat, you can't drive it as confidently. Yes, it would feel rock solid, but the quick response and especially sharp or sequential corners (like a slalom) would eat the car for breakfast.

It does make a very big different. 200 pounds makes a huge difference. I can feel it when I've got a passenger, during acceleration and cornering. And new cars are progressively getting heavier. I don't find that acceptable regardless of what high-tech crap you throw on them to compensate. Physics cannot be denied.

I won't get it unless it's 3700 or less. I'll go with a mustang if they can't keep the weight in check. It's that important to me. If people just keep buying cars regardless of how heavy they get we wind up with a bunch of boring to drive boats that can't do anything but go in a straight line. The market needs better gas mileage as well...

That's just how I see it. Whatever happens, the Camaro is going to be great and very desirable. But if it's heavy, it's not for me.

 

This thread raises some very good points.

The Camaro is coming back in a totally different era of cars than it was born into initially in the 1960's. Gone are the days when the only car companies GM competed with were Chrysler and Ford. Today, GM has competitors hitting them from the left, right, and from behind. Is a Hyundai going to be a threat to the Camaro? No. A Toyota sports coupe? No. Are they going to exist and offer customers another choice they wouldn't have had before? Absolutely.

You could even say the Nissan Altima V6 coupe is something some people may pit against a Camaro with their own decision. Again, you have to think outside the box that there will be more than just people looking for a RWD V8 coupe.

It will be interresting to see the rest of the automotive world's reaction once the Camaro is officially on the streets of our Country. Might it be seen as nothing more than a resurrection of something that isn't seen by many as anything more than a young guy's fun gun? Will others see it as an instant classic? Is there even such a thing as an instant classic with today's cars? You'd like to think GM has thought of all of this before making the decision to invest millions to resurrect a treasured nameplate.

 

Excellent point.

Car companies have been buying BMW 3 and 5 series and tearing them down to the last bolt for 20 years, trying to find what makes them handle like a BMW. The secret? WEIGHT! Or lack thereof. And proper placement of the weight that does exist. I read that when BMW designs a car, they begin with someone of average to above average size and weight, and start where his center of gravity is. Then they design the entire chasis, interior, exterior, and drivetrain around the butt of the driver's seat. Weight is saved where it can be, and the rest is calculated to where near 50/50 weight ballance is acheived - like moving the battery to the trunk, and mounting the entire engine behind the front axle.

I don't know if GM will go to these extremes to design the Camaro, but would sure be nice if they did.

 

That's how I feel as well.

 

Oh, and just an added word on Ford's "Huntsman".
That seems to be the name people are using for Ford's future Global RWD Program. Much like Zeta is/was to GM, this will be a merging of Ford's RWD programs in North America and Australia.

So far there is word of a short and long wheelbase version - and a specific version for Mustang. For North America, there is talk of Lincoln getting at least two products off of the GRWDP, and Ford getting a sedan and of course Mustang.

Ready to go around '11.

 

Then buy your stinking Hyundai and leave the rest of us alone!




j/k

 

I don't think I'm in the market for a Hyundai. But I'm not one of these guys who'll automatically buy a Camaro even if it doesn't meet my standards either.

 

I am not sure I follow you -- if people choose a "near competitor" (like the Hyundai and Toyota in your example), that is, by definition, a threat to the Camaro as it is a lost sale opportunity.

Sure, the Camaro will have lot of faithful buyers who will buy it no matter what, but if it is a one-trick pony (straight line grunt and not much corner feel) like the Mustang, it will battle the Ford for those sales (which seem to be shrinking). However, if the Camaro can add great handling feel to the mix, it will attract a much wider enthusiast market.

It is interesting to watch this, even on this board. Some people are in the "stripped, drag-focused, same as it ever was" camp that would only consider a Camaro, Mustang or Challenger (if that).

Yet, others seem to be in the "keep weight down as I want to feel the corners, even if the engine isn't 500hp" camp. These people seem to consider cars like the 335i and Z.

Personally, I think this would be the greatest feat of the Camaro. If it can somehow get close-to-Corvette handling feel (most likely by keeping weight down), yet offer 4 seats, I think it could re-define the segment and the daily driven enthusiast car as a whole.

 

Me too. And really, the only way I see that happening is - as you mention - keeping weight down.


And if Camaro wants to shed it's old stereotypes, (fair or unfair), this is one very important area which should be carefully scrutinized.

 

I don't see what a primered mulletmobile has to do with weight and handling.

I expect a-
V6 Camaro to handle okay..slightly better than a V6 Mustang

SS Camaro to handle at least as well as an coupe in it's price range..but also have a decent ride. My GTO rides very comfortably, but you would never get aggressive with it because it has a pretty cheap, lowbrow suspension. A GTO with a Pedders setup will run with some of the best cars in the world. If they could make a mid model V8 that rides as comfortable as my GTO but can be pushed to greater limits..I am happy.

Z28 (top dog) Camaro to approach a C6 in handling...but you will likely pay for it in price and ride.

Corvette handling is cool and all, but there are almost no places you can use it at it's limits. I would rather have most Camaros have a decent ride, with handling characteristics slightly better than it's main competition (Mustang). Then make a top dog that can out handle the best in the world for those who get off on that kind of thing. The Camaro needs mass market appeal like the Mustang.....not Corvette like handling...and the compromises in ride that will be made to make that happen at the right price point.

Also, I am not so sure I woudl worry about imports, and FWD competition. The Camaro name, and design has a lot going for it...not one person comes by my desk who does not drool over the diecast I have...and I am talking people who are not car people at all. Yet they know what the new Camaro is, and love it without knowing any specs like weight, or engines. GM will have a hit on it's hands as long as it does not give these kinds od potential buyers reasons not to buy the Camaro. The Camaro will fail if GM tries to build a car that out performs everything in it's class (as some people here want) above all other priorities.

 

I agree, but it is the feeling we are talking about here -- not lap times - and weight has a very direct impact on the feeling (the harshness can be subdued in the Camaro quite easily with different suspension settings).

If it is close to the E92 M3 in weight (3,600#), I will be happy/satisfied. However, with the G8 around 4,000#, that is a lot of weight to shed.

There are only a couple of things that are difficult to change in the aftermarket -- the primary one being weight (interior quality being the other). Everything else -- power, suspension, etc. -- is very easy to change to fit a specific driver's taste.

I think that is the main reason people are watching the weight very closely.

 

I agree with that statement. But, heck, we are all dreaming here, so let us dream.

The good thing is, though, GM has all the tools to make it a reality. LS motor + Zeta + G8-level interior - weight = Mustang killer.