It's about attracting fresh blood into the brand.

I've been in the Camaro community for a long time. I've met alot of people who are true enthusiasts, who know every spec on their car, know it's strengths and weaknesses, and are very cognisant - in excruciating detail - on what they'd want in their next Camaro. But that's not everyone. In fact most of these very nice Camaro people I've met, are happy to simply pack their coolers and folding chairs into their Camaros and go to events.

Frankly, they don't have clue number one about weight, handling, anything. That doesn't mean that they're not good people, they simply are not very discriminating. These same people would buy a Camaro no matter what. You could graft a 4th or 1st gen nose onto a Trailblazer, give it a V8, and they'd lap it up. As long as Camaro is available at a certain price point, this segment will always buy them. I really don't see these particular people as opinion leaders though. Their neighbors or coworkers aren't going to buy a Camaro, just 'cause they did.

To thrive, Camaro needs to add to it's base and attract a whole new segment. And just being a stylish coupe with mediocre "feel" isn't going to do it.

Why do people buy BMW's? Obviously, not everyone who buys one has a full appreciation of it's chassis dynamics. I'd bet most owners couldn't tell the difference in dynamics between a 335i or a G6. But they pay the premium for the Bimmer. They buy them because knowledeable people rave about them. They buy them because a guy they know, read in a magazine that they drive great. They buy them because of the image that BMW has built for their products.
And you can't do that with smoke and mirrors, ie., who's gonna notice that extra 200 pounds? The people who notice these things, (opinion leaders), will notice, and they'll tell those who are clueless and that will be that..

Primered mulletmobiles? You said it, not me. But plenty of cars DON'T have that image. The Camaro deserves WAY better.

 

Charlie I understand what you're saying. However does this new brood 3-series/G6 like sport coupe even have to be a "Camaro", or does it have to have a V8 for that matter? Rather than pigeon holing "Camaro" into something it isn't, why not start from scratch.

Quiet frankly, I think a RWD version of the new Malibu might fit that niche you're looking for. I could even imagine a coupe version.

 

100% agreed. I can do mostly inexpensive bolt ons and some decent exhaust work with a tune and reflash of the computer to get 25+ more horsepower out of a car. I can spend $1500 and up the handling limits of a car that's not aggressively suspended significantly (a mustang for example, becomes quite a decent track car with suspension overhaul)

I can't do much of anything to shed weight without ruining the daily-driver characteristics of a car. And it's expensive if you want to lose 150-200 pounds. Very expensive.

And there is nothing...nothing! that you can do to get a heavy car to feel tossable and responsive. Yeah, you can make it handle well. But it'll feel crappy while it goes about it's business. I don't want a cushy highway cruiser land yaght camaro, but I also don't want one that handles great but rides like a 1980's truck. Those are pretty much the options with an overly heavy car.

I want something nimble, darty, quick, tossable, rear wheel drive, and decently fast. I can get that (to at least an acceptable degree) with suspension-modified Mustang GT, even though it's starting to push the weight issue. I can get that with a 350z. I could get that with a used late-model C5 corvette (or in a couple years an early C6 corvette) for the same money....

I want a camaro. I like the camaro. I hope they keep it to 3600. 3700 is pretty much the absolute limit I'd be willing to pay for. You have to draw a line somewhere. Consumers are mostly uneducated about this stuff, but we WILL eventually see a backlash to the ever-increasing weight of new cars. If THIS camaro is fat, I still hope it's successful, so that 10 years down the line, when the market is demanding lighter vehicles, we can get a smaller, ~3100-3200lb vehicle that might have only 280-300 horse, but feels far more enjoyable. For me, that would be the ideal car. Around 3000 pounds, decent, usable torquey power, and crisp, responsive enjoyable handling. I can always up the power in the aftermarket. The first auto company to offer me that choice WILL get my money. I research big purchases a lot and since I'll be making a new car purchase in the next 2 years, vehicles that are in the running are the Mustang, RX-8, new Camaro, next-gen Nissan-Z, and possibly a 1 series BMW. I have an emotional attachment to the Camaro, it was my first car (trucks from age 14-16 and Camaro at 16), and I love the way the new one looks.

So, I hope the Camaro keeps weight largely in check. I really want one.

 

Huh? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion based on my post.

 

I think he's implying that the camaro should be a larger vehicle, rather than a smaller, lighter one. More focus on raw muscle than finesse. That IS what the Camaro has been. Every generation has focused on being bigger, faster, and more powerful.

I think that the vehicle should continue to evolve but not just in that direction. Why can't more development energy be focused on lightening it and keeping the power constant? That's the ideal for me. If that's not what the masses want from a camaro, that's not the direction it will go, but that would drive me away from the car....instead of me driving away IN the car.

 

Not exactly. I'm saying the Camaro should be a Camaro. As you said it has evolved over the years.

Back in the day when it was introduced, the Camaro was considered a small car. Today, even the original Camaros don't fit the criteria of a small car.

Perhaps there needs to be a car that fits Charlie's formula; however all I am suggesting is why does that car have to be Camaro. Why can't it be something else. Not because such a car wouldn't be worthy of the Camaro name, but so that Camaro enthusiasts, like us, won't complain because it doesn't fit their idea of a Camaro. (I simply throw in the debates on t-tops to prove my point.) That would allow this new sports coupe to develop into a world class vehicle not limited by folks like us who are preconditioned to what we think a Camaro should be. This new sports coupe could be designed from the get-go to be everything it needs to be. And with the performance numbers we see today with turbocharged fours and high output V6s, perhaps a lighter weight car doesn't even need a V8 option.

Just something to think about.

 

I simply do not understand the reasoning behind arguing against something that would improve every single facet of vehicle performance...Is there some kind of upper limit on how good a camaro is allowed to be that I don't know about?

 

Nope. Third gens are A LOT smaller and tidier than second gens.

I'm sure there will be those that will argue this, but I feel that smaller size is the very reason 3rd gens have made such a big mark on history.



Imagine what the 4th gen could have been if it could have gotten the improved front end geometry and powertrain packages but kept the 3rd gen size and weight.

Now imagine the knockout styling of the 5th gen with our present day near unbelievable powertrain options also in a smaller package like the 3rd gen was to the 2nd. Imagine what that car could do.

I believe that's Charlie's point.

 

You've been here a while. Don't you remember the discussions on whether Camaro should go retro like the 1st gens or evolve from the 4th gens? And when the Camaro concept was revealed, don't you recall the endless debates on grills, lights, too retro, no t-tops, I don't like the gauges, etc?

I not saying we shouldn't improve the Camaro. I'm saying that if we believe GM needs a lighter sports coupe that performs on par with the BMW 3s, 350Zs, Mercedes C-classes of the world, why not start over from scratch and build the car right? Why limit ourselves to design choices or restrictions brought about because they aren't "Camarolike"? Why not build the best world class sports coupe on the planet and name it after the fact?

What is in a name anyway?

(Ok... playing devil's advocate a bit here. You all know how I feel about the Camaro name, and the Z28 badge. )

 

All that other stuff aside, you seem to characterize "these people" as being of lesser importance to the Camaro community. That may not be your point, but that's the vibe I get.

"These people aren't real Camaro fanatics because they don't put an almost psychotic premium on compact physical size, weight, etc."

Well Charlie, I hate to sound like a **** but these are the people that have also actually purchased a Camaro after the 1980's. To me, no less important to our community (and in many ways, allow the car to thrive because they are supporting it with their pocketbook). I'm not saying this gives GM carte blanche to build whatever kind of car they want and slap a misappropriated Camaro badge on it -- it's very important that they do their best to keep enthusiasts like you excited about the car and in the fold -- but I am saying you can't look at the Camaro and its fans with such tunnel vision.

You don't think there are plenty of those in the Mustang community that will buy whatever car has the little pony on the grille? I wonder where Mustang would be without these people.

 

And I think that a heavier sports coupe shouldn't even be developed in the first place....*shrugs*

It's not as if the Camaro loses it's "camaroness" if it's slightly smaller and lighter. Look at the Foxbody mustang. It was small and pretty light (you could option a V-8 version that weighed 2900lbs). Apply the up-to-date suspension/chassis tech to a body that size, with the current styling and engine options, and you'd have....something incredibly crazy.

I know the camaro is going to be at least 3600lbs because of the platform sharing, but I would far prefer it if it were based on a smaller platform. What would have happened if it were based on a stretched version of Kappa, for example? An extended area in the back for a trunk, a stretched wheelbase to allow 2+2 seating...the chassis already accepts smallblock V-8 engines. It'd be more like 3300-3400. And it could keep the styling. That's the kind of car I would have preferred. The "character" of a camaro is largely due to tuning and marketing image, it would be no less "camaro-like'....I'm just saying.

But, as I also keep saying, I really love the camaro and it WILL be in my garage as long as it's not over 3700lbs. And whatever happens, I WILL test drive it. If it comes in at 3750 and still manages to impress me on a test drive, I'd be willing to compromise. I'm reasonable. I just can't stress enough how much I think the current car industry is headed towards making everything too heavy.

 

That was also 20-years ago. Such a car wouldn't meet today's safety standards. (I personally wouldn't buy a foxbody-sized Camaro.)

However GM has yet to build a production 2+2 version of Kappa. Furthermore, they also have yet to offer a V-8 version, even though they and others have proven a V-8 fits. There are reasons for this beyond those that imply its just because they don't want to upset the Corvette faithful.

While I hope it is as light as possible, I have the feeling you may be disappointed. As I have stated numerous times in the past, as long as it handles and accelerates as a Camaro should, I will be happy.

200-lbs may sound like a lot, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans these days when you consider that the car was engineered and designed to weigh what it weighs. Its not like someone just slapped on an extra 200-lbs and said, "screw the buyers, let them deal with it." While there are several people here that believe this, in my opinion, they're acting like chicken littles and have no evidence to back it up. In other words, they are simply full of it.

 

Most adults (age 25+) I know could stand to lose 80 to 100 pounds anyway.... I'm 165 so my car will weight 100 or so pounds less than most people's

Lose the jack, tools, spare, and sterio (plus the driver losing weight) and VIOLA! 200 lb lighter camaro

*Disclaimer:

I'm being a smart ***

 

Using your logic, my Camaro will weigh over 4000 lbs!

 

That's not what I was trying to say at all. And I know PLENTY of Camaro enthusiasts, (and auto enthusiasts in general), who are very in tune with performance specifics.

I was commenting on the posts that indicate that a certain segment of the Camaro community, (not all), could care less about specific performance metrics like weight, chassis dynamics, etc. And it's true, because I see it first hand all the time. This segment however, cannot possibly buy enough Camaros to keep the brand viable, nor do they heavily influence prospective buyers. I have personal friends in the Camaro community who wouldn't know the difference between an LS1 or an electric motor. But these very same people won't stop buying Camaros if new people, people from outside of what we would consider the "Camaro enthusiast community", were to suddenly become interested in Camaro and find it appealing because it was an awesome, fun-to-drive, car, (regardless of brand), and start buying them for themselves, and hey, maybe word would spread and even some of their friends would buy them too. What's wrong with that? Everyone wins.

I'm just not getting this whole line of reasoning.....