GM reportedly mentions Z28 and Camaro changes
06-11-2010 | 03:33 PM
#46
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
Power to weight ratio wise;
2010 SS MT 9.06 lb per HP.
2011 GT500 MT 6.94 lb per HP.
That's a huge difference. In fact it's roughly the same difference as the SS has over the V6 Camaro ~ 2.5lbs per HP. It's in the real world where driver ability and conditions sometimes play in to even up the race. On paper it's GT500 hands down.
Even a LS7 or LSA powered Z28 at the SS's MT curb weight of 3860lbs doesn't trump but could only equal the GT500 for 2011.
LS7 Z28 505HP 7.64 lb per HP.
LSA Z28 556HP 6.94 lb per HP.
And I think we all know that if the Z28 was LSA powered it would have to weigh more than the SS simply for the engine and supercharger/intercooler alone. Thats not taking into account any suspension or wheel changes.
06-11-2010 | 03:52 PM
#47
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,228
From: Florida
Almost as stupid as people calling their car a "Maro". Why does everything have to be ghetto'd out these days. I see the same thing with people calling Cobalts "balts". I guess Kentucky Fried Chicken started this BS back when they just went with KFC because we are a lazy people these days.
06-11-2010 | 04:25 PM
#48
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,497
From: Okemos, MI
Almost as stupid as people calling their car a "Maro". Why does everything have to be ghetto'd out these days. I see the same thing with people calling Cobalts "balts". I guess Kentucky Fried Chicken started this BS back when they just went with KFC because we are a lazy people these days.
That said, "bird" as a short form of Firebird doesn't bug me, nor does TA for Trans Am. "Formy" for a Formula only bugs me a little.
06-12-2010 | 05:16 PM
#49
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 222
From: FLORIDA
The 2010 SS is not coming pretty close to the 11' GT500 stock. What numbers? A bone stock 11' GT500 is 550/510. They dyno at around 500/476. The 2010 M SS is 426/420 and dynos around 364/371. The Z28 will need a lot more than 80 horsepower/torque to run with the 11' GT500 let alone blow it away. Not to mention a significant weight reduction.
06-14-2010 | 08:08 AM
#50
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,482
From: ohio
because they can......thats the only answer needed. i can sit here all day and ask you why you dont, and you can tell me because you cant. well, people do that because they can. possibly because of company policy for a company car or because of personal preference to have a new car every 3 years.all of my past cars have been leased. except for my camaro.
06-14-2010 | 08:11 AM
#51
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,482
From: ohio
To comfortably afford a new $40,000 car on a 60-month loan at a 5% interest rate, you need to be able to handle a $640/month payment. $640/month is $7,680/year. On a typical budget, a practical limit on what you spend on a car should be 15% of your take-home pay. Extrapolating, that means you need an income of $51,200/year after taxes, which works out to more than 60k before taxes.
The median household income in the U.S. is around 44,000/year, using the most recent stats I could find (2007, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had gone down since then). Those are typically two-person families, which means that the income will likely need to provide transportation for two people -- i.e., two cars.
I do know a lot of people whose incomes are well above average too, and some of them do in fact buy new cars every couple of years. That (or some strange priorities) is what it takes to afford what you're suggesting. My income is above the national average, so no, I'm actually not including myself.
However, I also know a bunch of people who have roughly average or below-average incomes. They outnumber the above-average people (that I know) by a lot, and it's those people that I'm talking about. Those people can't afford a new car every few years.
Yes, there are exceptions, but that's not my point. My point is that in general, the advice that everyone should go out and buy a car today that is similar to the car they really want rather than waiting for what they really want is highly impractical and reveals a very narrow view of the world.
The median household income in the U.S. is around 44,000/year, using the most recent stats I could find (2007, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had gone down since then). Those are typically two-person families, which means that the income will likely need to provide transportation for two people -- i.e., two cars.
I do know a lot of people whose incomes are well above average too, and some of them do in fact buy new cars every couple of years. That (or some strange priorities) is what it takes to afford what you're suggesting. My income is above the national average, so no, I'm actually not including myself.
However, I also know a bunch of people who have roughly average or below-average incomes. They outnumber the above-average people (that I know) by a lot, and it's those people that I'm talking about. Those people can't afford a new car every few years.
Yes, there are exceptions, but that's not my point. My point is that in general, the advice that everyone should go out and buy a car today that is similar to the car they really want rather than waiting for what they really want is highly impractical and reveals a very narrow view of the world.
06-14-2010 | 08:13 AM
#52
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,482
From: ohio
On paper the SS isn't very close to the 2011 GT500 at all.
Power to weight ratio wise;
2010 SS MT 9.06 lb per HP.
2011 GT500 MT 6.94 lb per HP.
That's a huge difference. In fact it's roughly the same difference as the SS has over the V6 Camaro ~ 2.5lbs per HP. It's in the real world where driver ability and conditions sometimes play in to even up the race. On paper it's GT500 hands down.
Even a LS7 or LSA powered Z28 at the SS's MT curb weight of 3860lbs doesn't trump but could only equal the GT500 for 2011.
LS7 Z28 505HP 7.64 lb per HP.
LSA Z28 556HP 6.94 lb per HP.
And I think we all know that if the Z28 was LSA powered it would have to weigh more than the SS simply for the engine and supercharger/intercooler alone. Thats not taking into account any suspension or wheel changes.
Power to weight ratio wise;
2010 SS MT 9.06 lb per HP.
2011 GT500 MT 6.94 lb per HP.
That's a huge difference. In fact it's roughly the same difference as the SS has over the V6 Camaro ~ 2.5lbs per HP. It's in the real world where driver ability and conditions sometimes play in to even up the race. On paper it's GT500 hands down.
Even a LS7 or LSA powered Z28 at the SS's MT curb weight of 3860lbs doesn't trump but could only equal the GT500 for 2011.
LS7 Z28 505HP 7.64 lb per HP.
LSA Z28 556HP 6.94 lb per HP.
And I think we all know that if the Z28 was LSA powered it would have to weigh more than the SS simply for the engine and supercharger/intercooler alone. Thats not taking into account any suspension or wheel changes.
06-14-2010 | 08:40 AM
#54
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,482
From: ohio
2011 gt500 550 hp....0-60 4.2 sec ......1/4 mile 12.3 sec ..........60-0 106 ft ....................... ...................................... ...... ..... 2010 camaro ss 426hp....0-60 4.8 sec.......1-4 mile 13.4 sec ........60-0 117ft
thats pretty good numbers on the 30k ss compared to the 50k gt500.
124 hp difference.
thats pretty good numbers on the 30k ss compared to the 50k gt500.
124 hp difference.
06-14-2010 | 09:30 AM
#56
Super Moderator
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 9,497
From: Okemos, MI
I assume they're still waiting for demand to die down. Real sales are better than leases as far as GM is concerned, so as long as sales demand remains strong, there's no reason to start allowing leases.
Also, it remains to be seen what the resale value of Camaros will be. With no strong indicator for that, it's hard to calculate residuals, which means that figuring out how much to charge for a lease is basically a crapshoot (moreso than usual).
I suspect we'll see Camaros come up for lease pretty soon. Maybe when the 2011 models go on sale.
Also, it remains to be seen what the resale value of Camaros will be. With no strong indicator for that, it's hard to calculate residuals, which means that figuring out how much to charge for a lease is basically a crapshoot (moreso than usual).
I suspect we'll see Camaros come up for lease pretty soon. Maybe when the 2011 models go on sale.
06-14-2010 | 11:07 AM
#57
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,154
From: All around
There was a big deal behind that - it was to get "fried" out of the title in an attempt to seem more healthy. It worked till they released the "double down".
The Z28 doesn't have to literally compete by the numbers with the GT500. It SHOULD, but it isn't a direct requirement. If you compared the numbers between a Sky, Solstice, and MX5 and then made your decision on which one to live with without really driving them, you'd be foolish. The Camaro does have some things going for it and some new things coming up that will help... So far sales are going well and I'm going to bet the Z28 is going to be pretty nearly impossible to find on a dealer lot without a "SOLD" sticker on it for a good year after they release it to the public.
The Z28 doesn't have to literally compete by the numbers with the GT500. It SHOULD, but it isn't a direct requirement. If you compared the numbers between a Sky, Solstice, and MX5 and then made your decision on which one to live with without really driving them, you'd be foolish. The Camaro does have some things going for it and some new things coming up that will help... So far sales are going well and I'm going to bet the Z28 is going to be pretty nearly impossible to find on a dealer lot without a "SOLD" sticker on it for a good year after they release it to the public.
06-14-2010 | 11:28 AM
#58
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,482
From: ohio
I assume they're still waiting for demand to die down. Real sales are better than leases as far as GM is concerned, so as long as sales demand remains strong, there's no reason to start allowing leases.
Also, it remains to be seen what the resale value of Camaros will be. With no strong indicator for that, it's hard to calculate residuals, which means that figuring out how much to charge for a lease is basically a crapshoot (moreso than usual).
I suspect we'll see Camaros come up for lease pretty soon. Maybe when the 2011 models go on sale.
Also, it remains to be seen what the resale value of Camaros will be. With no strong indicator for that, it's hard to calculate residuals, which means that figuring out how much to charge for a lease is basically a crapshoot (moreso than usual).
I suspect we'll see Camaros come up for lease pretty soon. Maybe when the 2011 models go on sale.
06-15-2010 | 10:32 AM
#59
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 214
From: Toronto,Canada
back to my point...why wait? the Z28 will be expensive, tough to justify for travelling....(fuel, tires, etc) expensive to insure, and unfindable for a year or more....so thats a long wait and expense...That is why I bought the SS now...the car is here...we all waited years for it...it flat out performs incredibly well...lets go buy one ! the Z28 will come down the pike when it's good and ready...
06-15-2010 | 11:11 AM
#60
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,482
From: ohio
back to my point...why wait? the Z28 will be expensive, tough to justify for travelling....(fuel, tires, etc) expensive to insure, and unfindable for a year or more....so thats a long wait and expense...That is why I bought the SS now...the car is here...we all waited years for it...it flat out performs incredibly well...lets go buy one ! the Z28 will come down the pike when it's good and ready...