I'd like to remind everyone that if members can't construct their posts without being rude or insulting, they won't be welcome here. There are no exceptions to this.

This also is the last site on the Internet to use to degrade the car and the people who worked on it for any reason. There is a difference between being negative and offering constructive criticism.

This site is PRO-CAMARO, has been for the last 12 years and isn't about to change now. One should be able to infer that from the name of the site alone. If you disagree with this, you shouldn't even be here to read this message in the first place.

 

Scott, my car isn't stock. Give me a little credit.

Again, a lot of people are obviously passionate about these cars, or these kinds of "discussions" wouldn't occur. GM and it's employees, since they have more vested interest than any of us, obviously wouldn't come out with a Camaro with the intention of it failing. Apparently, newer cars "must" weigh more. I can somewhat accept that, but it doesn't mean I have to like it or buy newer cars, as the one I have runs and drives pretty darn well.

What I was trying to illustrate with my previous post is that the GM people aren't the only ones here with cost concerns. They had a budget to build the Camaro, and "potential buyers" such as myself would have to justify the extra cost of buying the car. Yeah, yeah, yeah.....I know you're saying, "How can you say that without having driven the car?" Sure, I'll probably stop in and give the car a whirl, and if it drives so much better than what I have now that I buy it, yeah, I'll eat crow. I just don't see that happening though. I mean, it's still 4 wheels and a steering wheel, how much better is the new Camaro going to drive?

I tell you what. I'd bet my car, eat the crow any way you cook it, AND buy a new Camaro if the 2010 Camaro SS could outperform a 2010 Corvette Z51 on a road course (stock for stock).

 

Because they are almost all going down the same path of bigger bigger bigger cars. But this trend is ending, and anyone with an ounce of foresight saw it coming. In my view, the Camaro was a huge opportunity to be on the RIGHT side of the new trend toward higher mpg vehicles. Opportunity lost...

I'd like to see official results on this one. Generally, Corvettes are much faster autoXers than F-bodies. If in a specific instance, with differently-talented drivers and/or with different tires, an SS 1LE happened to outperform a Corvette Z51 "time and time again", that in no way proves that an SS 1LE Camaro is a faster autoX car than a Z51 Corvette (it's not). And it doesn't "prove" that weight is not an important factor in autoX or handling in general, either. It *IS* important.

 

Well that and there was maybe a 200 lb weight difference between the '99 Camaro SS and '99 Corvette Z51.
There's more like an 800 lb weight difference between the 2010 Camaro SS and a 2010 Corvette Z51. I'd imagine it damn near impossible to sweep that kind of weight disparity under the rug with nothing more than just better tires. If you can prove Sir Isaac Newton wrong, be my guest
It is what it is though.

 

Thank you Scott. And this is the point. His wants do NOT!

PS - It's nice to see you come out of the corner swinging sometimes.

 

First Scott, let's get something straight - when have I hurled insults toward you and your co-workers? When and what did I say? I haven't. I've been taking from shots from you though, and that's fine, I can hack it.

And in all the conversations we've had on this car in general, and weight in particular, I think even you never thought it would be this heavy.

But I give you credit Scott, you expend quite abit of your time and energy getting out with the folks, and I've told you that personally. But I also have a sense of what many Camaro folks want as well, mainly because I am one of those folks.

I know this car is quite abit heavier than what I wanted or you wanted or even GM wanted. Your job though, is to put the best face on it. My job, (as an enthusiast), is to call 'em a I see 'em.

And getting back to that 1LE vs Z51 thing, no way will any version of the 5th gen outlap a Z06 or ZR1 - let alone a C7. Runflats or no runflats.

 

I call 'em as I see 'em too. And the new Camaro is a superb design, from what I've seen so far (having not driven one yet of course). It looks like a million bucks. It's got the basic specs that fit my needs (~400 HP, RWD, 2+2, IRS, HUD, etc). If you don't like the specs - why do you continue to repeat your refrain? You are not going to change anything. Go get your low-miles CTS-V and be happy. And let us who love the new Camaro, enjoy the car we love.
No one is claiming the new Camaro is going to stomp on a C6! The notion was, in history, such as with certain 4gen Camaros vs certain C5's, that low weight alone was not a car's universal savior on the track. Low weight is only part of the track prowess formula. Power, tq, gearing, suspension design, etc, are all part of it. Hence the importance of

 

I really don’t understand why you people argue so much I not an engineer or even close I know weight is an issue to anyone races no matter what you partake in (NHRA, SCCA, WHATEVER). No one that I know of takes a brand new car of any make and throws in on the racetrack without any mods and really expects it to do very well at all!
I look back at third gem (no that’s not a typo Thirds the best ???? the rest so far) and the forth gen’s which one were heavier which ones were faster which handled better????
Every car gets better if it didn’t car companies would not make MONEY!!!

As far as Camaro vs. Mustang thank God that’s a constant without it without it where would the fun be?

I haven’t posted on this site very much I have to admit I come here to get info on a new exciting car that has a great history. I believe that the team that has developed the car was reminded of this constantly!!!!!

I have 5 Daughters that are currently in college or getting married I know I probably wont drive a new Camaro that doesn’t curb my excitement for the car and the hope that it does very well in sells. I have read the spec sheet and I am pleased with what I see. I am sure the aftermarket world people are scrambling to produce those fiercely sought after parts that makes everything lighter and faster so that the rivalry will live on. It doesn’t bother me that Mustang people rag on the new Camaro that’s a given but knowing that people are Bit^$ing about what this car weighs with the numbers that I’ve seen so far pains me!!! Flame me if you want my defense is that I turn my own wrenches and when my girls are all married Ill retire my third gen (10second without nitrous third gen) get a 5th and start building one of my forth gens for the track!

I belong to another forum here in Kansass and if you come in flaming F-Body’s your politely told to leave until you have a better disposition on what the forum is all about!

This thread is truly named correctly get a grip if you like the car buy one. If you like the car but don’t like the weight buy the car mod it drop the pounds. If you don’t like the car don’t buy it you don’t have to Bit#h about something you had a really good hint to anyways!!! THIS IS A CAMARO FORUM! Rant off!!!!

 

I respectfully disagree with this being a long-term trend. Short-term - sure. But car weights have grown continuously in the last few decades. I've found sources for this before, sorry but do not have time to look it up today.

The trend happening right now is only short term, until we wake up and realize how much oil we can pump right here in the US.

Not to mention other sources of energy, which can take a lot of pressure off oil prices...

http://online.wsj.com/article_print/...468386311.html

 

No need to look it up, I'm well aware of the trend.

So, any trend toward greater weight is definitely the REAL trend going forward, and any trend toward lighter weight that we might see must only be short-term? I think that we will (must) enter an era in which we do MORE with LESS instead of the recent-decades trend of doing MORE with MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE. The current rate of consumption is simply unsustainable.
And drilling for more oil now won't impact pricing soon enough to make the 5th gen's fuel economy acceptable within its lifetime.

Alternative sources of energy will be key going forward. That does not mean that we will continue driving around in ridiculously outsized, overweight, and overconsuming vehicles. The first thing that will happen (is happening now) is that people will go out of their way to buy vehicles that consume LESS.

With an ounce of foresight, the new Camaro *could* have been one of those vehicles.

 

Longer (MULTI-DECADE) trends are much more reliable than teeny one-year sensationalized ones.
Only true, if no one summons the economic fortitude to drill here, drill now! We have plenty of oil in North America. Just a matter of bringing political pressure to bear, so we can pump it and refine it here like God intended
That's a common myth, being pumped up and kept alive by the mainstream media. But the fact is, there are plenty of places that could spool up and start producing very quickly here in the USA. For example, the shallow waters off Cali. Oil could be coming from there in just a couple years from go-ahead. And the effect on wildly speculative prices would be IMMEDIATE, as was seen from President Bush's recent termination of the executive order prohibiting drilling.

BTW - what's this blarney about 'making the 5gen's MPG acceptable'? I find it acceptable right now. Pretty amazing actually.

Some are. Goody for them. Those who didn't really think of their budgeting are now paying attention, and that's good. But there's nothing 'ridiculous' about an extended cab 8' bed Silverado, to the family, rancher, or construction foreman who needs its capabilities. They will continue to need such a 'ridiculous' machine for decades to come.
Well it's not a welterweight econocar, sorry if that disappoints. If so though - maybe a Camaro was not meant for you anyway? If you are happier with something lighter, that also has 400 HP, RWD, IRS, and all the other cool stuff the Camaro will offer, well go get yourself one.

 

Is that so? Want to elaborate?

 

Go ahead and enjoy it with my blessing, Big.

 

I heard this story a long time ago from the SLP Eng Chief Engineer. It killed SLP they couldn't publicize this info. GM put a gag order on it so as to not upset Corvette Nation.

Same track - Milford Proving Grounds. Same driver - John Heinricey. He couldn't believe it, so he ran the course in the opposite direction and backed his times up.

Stock vs stock both cars with OE content only - the SS wore BFG KD's which was an option via SLP second sticker content.

It was a 2000 SS that SLP upfitted with their 1LE package. They brought it to Milford for GM to shake out. SLP was seeking approval from GM to add 1LE to their list of second sticker content. The Z51 times were from a '99 C5.

 

OK, so it's the tires that were different, super-sticky "Extreme Performance" 200-treadwear BFG KD's on the 1LE vs. "Ultra High Performance" 300-treadwear GoodYear Eagle F1 GS EMT's on the Corvette.

A surprising upset, but it demonstrates the KD tires extreme superiority over the OEM Corvette tires more than anything else. Corvettes KILL F-bodies in Showroom Stock autoX competition.