View Poll Results: what option would you want?
optional only
48
57.83%
standard equipment (would make base price higher)
25
30.12%
do not really care if equipped or not
10
12.05%
Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll
H.I.D. headlights in production car
01-24-2006 | 11:40 AM
#16
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
How very true it is that the more things change the more they stay the same!
Although computer forums weren't around at the time; the EXACT same sorts of discussion happened as manufacturers were making the change form the then current standard lighting available on vehicles to halogen set-ups!
I’ve no problem with it being an option on a new Camaro (but options have their own cost factors to consider). However, it is only a matter of time until all vehicles have HID lighting and the cost differential will become a virtual non-issue and that’s a good thing.
Although computer forums weren't around at the time; the EXACT same sorts of discussion happened as manufacturers were making the change form the then current standard lighting available on vehicles to halogen set-ups!
I’ve no problem with it being an option on a new Camaro (but options have their own cost factors to consider). However, it is only a matter of time until all vehicles have HID lighting and the cost differential will become a virtual non-issue and that’s a good thing.
01-24-2006 | 01:15 PM
#17
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
Originally Posted by Robert_Nashville
How very true it is that the more things change the more they stay the same!
Although computer forums weren't around at the time; the EXACT same sorts of discussion happened as manufacturers were making the change form the then current standard lighting available on vehicles to halogen set-ups!
I’ve no problem with it being an option on a new Camaro (but options have their own cost factors to consider). However, it is only a matter of time until all vehicles have HID lighting and the cost differential will become a virtual non-issue and that’s a good thing.
Although computer forums weren't around at the time; the EXACT same sorts of discussion happened as manufacturers were making the change form the then current standard lighting available on vehicles to halogen set-ups!
I’ve no problem with it being an option on a new Camaro (but options have their own cost factors to consider). However, it is only a matter of time until all vehicles have HID lighting and the cost differential will become a virtual non-issue and that’s a good thing.
Except HID is always more expensive than regular bulbs and always has more parts to fail than regular bulbs. Going from standard bulbs to halogen wasn't nearly the same leap in complexity and cost, they were still made largely the same way, just fill the bulb with a different gas.
You can get 9/10 the benefits of HID with a good halogen bulb in a projector housing and not need the expensive bulbs and a ballast to fire it off. If you need more light, increase the power and cooling capacity of the housing and you're there, no ballast, no expensive bulbs.
01-24-2006 | 01:32 PM
#18
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
Originally Posted by notgetleft
Except HID is always more expensive than regular bulbs and always has more parts to fail than regular bulbs. Going from standard bulbs to halogen wasn't nearly the same leap in complexity and cost, they were still made largely the same way, just fill the bulb with a different gas.
You can get 9/10 the benefits of HID with a good halogen bulb in a projector housing and not need the expensive bulbs and a ballast to fire it off. If you need more light, increase the power and cooling capacity of the housing and you're there, no ballast, no expensive bulbs.
You can get 9/10 the benefits of HID with a good halogen bulb in a projector housing and not need the expensive bulbs and a ballast to fire it off. If you need more light, increase the power and cooling capacity of the housing and you're there, no ballast, no expensive bulbs.
I understand what you are saying but don’t you think you could make that sort of an argument about almost any advancement?
The increase in usable light may not be a huge difference but I have two vehicles, one with and one without HIDs and I love the increase (small as it may be) of the HIDs.
Whether it’s worth the extra costs or not I don’t know…all I can say is that I’m glad I have them.
01-24-2006 | 02:46 PM
#19
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
Originally Posted by Robert_Nashville
I understand what you are saying but don’t you think you could make that sort of an argument about almost any advancement?
The increase in usable light may not be a huge difference but I have two vehicles, one with and one without HIDs and I love the increase (small as it may be) of the HIDs.
Whether it’s worth the extra costs or not I don’t know…all I can say is that I’m glad I have them.
The increase in usable light may not be a huge difference but I have two vehicles, one with and one without HIDs and I love the increase (small as it may be) of the HIDs.
Whether it’s worth the extra costs or not I don’t know…all I can say is that I’m glad I have them.
Are you comparing a projector HID to a standard sealed beam reflector? If so, stop right there, it's not apples to apples.
A projector with a standard bulb (i.e. GTO) is also world's better than a regular reflector headlight. All HID adds is a different bulb that makes more light per watt, kinda like a flourescent.
01-24-2006 | 04:35 PM
#20
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1998
Posts: 214
From: Dallas, TX
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
I'm almost at the point that I won't buy a car without HIDs, they're that good. Now, my 99 4th gen has great headlights compared to my 95 with the mini-rectangle jobs. But the 2 cars I have a lot of experience with that have HIDs are just on a complete different level, and I like driving at night a lot more with them. One has projector HIDs (BMW), and one has regular, non projector HIDs (02 Acura TL).
Lack of factory HIDs is one reason I knocked the GTO off my shopping list.
I marked "optional" but if engineering 2 seperate headlamps is going to be more expensive than just making HID standard and spreading the costs over all the cars built, then I say make them standard.
Lack of factory HIDs is one reason I knocked the GTO off my shopping list.
I marked "optional" but if engineering 2 seperate headlamps is going to be more expensive than just making HID standard and spreading the costs over all the cars built, then I say make them standard.
01-24-2006 | 05:26 PM
#21
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
HID need to be available but optinal because if this car is going to appeal to the masses it needs to have these types of options for those who want them and not for those with price in mind. I always think of the Mini Cooper with the long list of options for those who want a really customized Mini and those who want the reg model. I think its a philosophy that GM and all the car companies had in the 60's but got away from due to cost.
01-24-2006 | 06:07 PM
#22
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
Originally Posted by notgetleft
Projectors = YES
HIDs = NO (standard anyway, could care less if they make it an option)
HIDs = NO (standard anyway, could care less if they make it an option)
HIDs are great because they are in projector housings. You can get 90% (at least) of the performance with a Halogen bulb in the same housing.
My Firebird with sealed beams was exceedingly crappy compared to bulb/housing setups and abysmal compared to good projectors like on my one friend's Miata and my other friends Mazda 3. I modded the housings to take Silverstar bulbs but that really does not improve the lights by much if all. When I am done with my current project, I will be putting a set of Hella projectors in the flip ups but retaining the halogen bulb.
So... projectors standard, HID optional (will also make it relatively easy for someone to upgrade to HIDs later if they didn't originally due to OEM parts being available.
01-24-2006 | 07:37 PM
#24
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 31
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
I voted YES and i did it on my car myself with Audi OEM HID set.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/730437
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/730437/2
It was lots of work, which i would never repeat, but once you try them, halogens will look like a candle light.
GM please provide HIDs at least like an option so people will not try to DIY.
2001 Z28
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/730437
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/730437/2
It was lots of work, which i would never repeat, but once you try them, halogens will look like a candle light.
GM please provide HIDs at least like an option so people will not try to DIY.
2001 Z28
01-24-2006 | 10:03 PM
#27
Banned
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
Originally Posted by notgetleft
Are you comparing a projector HID to a standard sealed beam reflector? If so, stop right there, it's not apples to apples.
A projector with a standard bulb (i.e. GTO) is also world's better than a regular reflector headlight. All HID adds is a different bulb that makes more light per watt, kinda like a flourescent.
A projector with a standard bulb (i.e. GTO) is also world's better than a regular reflector headlight. All HID adds is a different bulb that makes more light per watt, kinda like a flourescent.
They aren't bad lights but they definetly aren't as effective as HIDs
01-24-2006 | 10:08 PM
#28
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
Originally Posted by Robert_Nashville
According to the literature I have, the lights on my Titan (the one without HIDs) are a "Complex surface lens halogen bulb headlights" so no, not stardard sealed beams.
They aren't bad lights but they definetly aren't as effective as HIDs
They aren't bad lights but they definetly aren't as effective as HIDs
Splitting hairs. Does it say the word projector? Then it's not a fair comparison, and that's the point. Complex surface = reflector = not projector
01-24-2006 | 10:31 PM
#29
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
Re: H.I.D. headlights in production car
Some quick reading on headlights
http://faqlight.carpassion.info/hl-systems.htm
OTOH...
So basically, just HID bulbs buy you more brightness at lower power. Flourescent lights for your car, with an EXPENSIVE ballast to buy, and then have break. The modest increase in directional light is hardly worth mentioning, but i will so nobody tries to split hairs again.
All the bang for the buck comes from projectors. They let you aim the bright part of the light higher because of the cut off, this is what makes all the HID cars on the market so much better. AFAIK, no OEM is wasting time with a HID bulb in a reflector housing because it would be assinine to put an expensive bulb in a cheap *** reflector when a projector housing is trivial compared to the cost of the ballast.
The extra focus and aim is quite simply where it's at. While it's a neat idea to save some electrical load from the lighting, since i can run my high beams, windshield wipers on high, stereo full blast, heater/defrost full blast at idle, i really couldn't give less of a **** about saving a couple amps of load. on my electrical system, especially not at the added cost of having a ballast that will break.
http://faqlight.carpassion.info/hl-systems.htm
What can I gain from having HID in high beams in a traditional open reflector based system, compared to halogen?
Advantages:
1) Can use smaller reflector to achieve same or higher brightness compared to halogen.
2) Lower energy consumption. Physically heavy and amps sucking halogen based light clusters seen on rally cars has become a thing of the past.
Disadvanteges:
1. HID bulbs do not achieve full brightness until the metallic salts in the HID capsule are completely vaporized, which could take up to a minute (or more) on some setups. This means they would not be much good for "flash to pass" signaling or extra light on demand.
2. Decreased bulb life if turning HIDs off and back on again. Continuous use in traffic passing situations would mean many hot re-strikes of HID arc, which shortens HID capsule life and requires MORE startup current than a cold capsule, thereby putting added wear & tear on your wiring and switching components.
3. Higher price. HID based systems costs more.
Advantages:
1) Can use smaller reflector to achieve same or higher brightness compared to halogen.
2) Lower energy consumption. Physically heavy and amps sucking halogen based light clusters seen on rally cars has become a thing of the past.
Disadvanteges:
1. HID bulbs do not achieve full brightness until the metallic salts in the HID capsule are completely vaporized, which could take up to a minute (or more) on some setups. This means they would not be much good for "flash to pass" signaling or extra light on demand.
2. Decreased bulb life if turning HIDs off and back on again. Continuous use in traffic passing situations would mean many hot re-strikes of HID arc, which shortens HID capsule life and requires MORE startup current than a cold capsule, thereby putting added wear & tear on your wiring and switching components.
3. Higher price. HID based systems costs more.
What are the names of the 3 different headlight types?
Parabolic: The light source hits a parabolic reflector that will determine the main focus of the beam. Then the front glass will dispurse the ligth more to each side. Ie. Mercedes up until model year 2000.
Free form: Same as parabolic, but front lens is clear. Ie. Volvo V70
Ellepsodial: Light source hits a parabolic reflector, gets horisontally cut off in the first focal point, then projected back straight again with a curved lens. Ellepsodials also goes under the name projector headlights.
Reflector design is a common description of Parabolic and Free Form.
What is the difference between projectors and reflector design?
EFFICIENCY).
Parabolic: 27%
Ellepsodials, 1st gen (found on early 90s BMW): 36%
Free form: 45%
Ellepsodials, 2nd gen (found on late 96+ Audi, BMW): 52%
There has been a trend that more and more wehicles go away from the traditional parabolic headlamp. The thick glass that are needed makes it a looser in the game of efficient lighting. It seems like the majority of auto manufacturer selects ellepsodials. They werent up to par in the first generation. The lower 180 degrees of the bulb output were practically not getting out of the housing. The second generation is designed with another focal point to increase efficiency.
BEAM CUTOFF). Projectors create a much sharper cutoff than reflectors. Allthough some parabolic reflectors can create pretty good cutoffs a projector will always be better. This has the main advantage that projectors can be aimed higher than reflectors because no stray light (above the cutoff) will exist to cause glare to oncoming drivers. This is especially important with high intensity light sources like HID and the new HIR halogen bulbs.
UNIVERSALITY). Projectors can be designed to be easily switchable from left drive to right drive beam patterns without loss of light. This usually done by turning the reflector housing in reference to the shield and you get the full 'opposite' beam pattern. UK needs this ability to drive legally on the continental Europe. This is why some cars for the UK market have projectors where the rest of the world don't. With a parabolic reflector, the 'kick up' part of the lens has to be taped up (so you lose the kick up completely).
Parabolic: The light source hits a parabolic reflector that will determine the main focus of the beam. Then the front glass will dispurse the ligth more to each side. Ie. Mercedes up until model year 2000.
Free form: Same as parabolic, but front lens is clear. Ie. Volvo V70
Ellepsodial: Light source hits a parabolic reflector, gets horisontally cut off in the first focal point, then projected back straight again with a curved lens. Ellepsodials also goes under the name projector headlights.
Reflector design is a common description of Parabolic and Free Form.
What is the difference between projectors and reflector design?
EFFICIENCY).
Parabolic: 27%
Ellepsodials, 1st gen (found on early 90s BMW): 36%
Free form: 45%
Ellepsodials, 2nd gen (found on late 96+ Audi, BMW): 52%
There has been a trend that more and more wehicles go away from the traditional parabolic headlamp. The thick glass that are needed makes it a looser in the game of efficient lighting. It seems like the majority of auto manufacturer selects ellepsodials. They werent up to par in the first generation. The lower 180 degrees of the bulb output were practically not getting out of the housing. The second generation is designed with another focal point to increase efficiency.
BEAM CUTOFF). Projectors create a much sharper cutoff than reflectors. Allthough some parabolic reflectors can create pretty good cutoffs a projector will always be better. This has the main advantage that projectors can be aimed higher than reflectors because no stray light (above the cutoff) will exist to cause glare to oncoming drivers. This is especially important with high intensity light sources like HID and the new HIR halogen bulbs.
UNIVERSALITY). Projectors can be designed to be easily switchable from left drive to right drive beam patterns without loss of light. This usually done by turning the reflector housing in reference to the shield and you get the full 'opposite' beam pattern. UK needs this ability to drive legally on the continental Europe. This is why some cars for the UK market have projectors where the rest of the world don't. With a parabolic reflector, the 'kick up' part of the lens has to be taped up (so you lose the kick up completely).
So basically, just HID bulbs buy you more brightness at lower power. Flourescent lights for your car, with an EXPENSIVE ballast to buy, and then have break. The modest increase in directional light is hardly worth mentioning, but i will so nobody tries to split hairs again.
All the bang for the buck comes from projectors. They let you aim the bright part of the light higher because of the cut off, this is what makes all the HID cars on the market so much better. AFAIK, no OEM is wasting time with a HID bulb in a reflector housing because it would be assinine to put an expensive bulb in a cheap *** reflector when a projector housing is trivial compared to the cost of the ballast.
The extra focus and aim is quite simply where it's at. While it's a neat idea to save some electrical load from the lighting, since i can run my high beams, windshield wipers on high, stereo full blast, heater/defrost full blast at idle, i really couldn't give less of a **** about saving a couple amps of load. on my electrical system, especially not at the added cost of having a ballast that will break.
Last edited by notgetleft; 01-24-2006 at 11:09 PM.
