SSbaby

LS7 maxing out at 500bhp?

Bullsh... err, sorry I just sneezed.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/h...e_exhaust.html

LeadSled1

So you can mod, or not mod? Once you start changing things it is all out the window as to what is faster. It is an equation of cubic dollars.

Best bang for the buck? Have you seen the current purchase price of a GT500 plus the dealer markups? Average price is around 60K+ for an average low 13 second car.

RussStang

The thing is faster than a 13 second car. Just because there have been some poor drivers that have gotten some bad times out of it, is no reason to conclude that it is only going to run low 13s, even on average.

LeadSled1

Please, post a list of STOCK times that people have put down in the cars. I'm not talking the fastest of them all but mid line. Most people are not putting their times up because they are not happy with low 13s. But with a heavy car and a lot of torque infront of a manual tranny they can be hard to launch.

91_z28_4me

I want to see what Evan Smith, I think that is the guy's name, can get a BONE STOCK one to run. Stock down the the tires and paper filter. That will likely be the fastest anyone will get a GT500 to run, stock that is.

greg_nate

I don't know how I can make this any clearer. I've given up on the other two responders because they couldn't get it.

Here goes: Best bang for the buck. With simple boltons, guys are already getting 550rwhp from the Stang - and its only been out a couple of months !!!

You are not going to get 550rwhp with simple boltons from an LS1, an LS6, an LS2 or even an LS7. Even the allmighty LS7, which I agree is a rocking engine, requires a new camshaft to get to 500+rwhp mark in a Vette.

Guys are getting 550rwhp with 402s that include a big cam and a nice set of heads...but again, we are not talking boltons here. We are talking a complete new engine.


Regarding the low 13 second GT500...I am not going to bother. Someone else will shed some light on that myth. With a skilled driver, a stock-to-the-tires 2004 Cobra ran constent 11.8s. FWIW, skilled drivers also ran a stock-to-the-tires 2004 Z06 in the high 11s too. In the hands of a skilled driver, I think we'll see better times for the GT500.

Robert_Nashville

greg_nate,

You may be right in a lot of what you say but in terms of what you get for the money, the ZO6 is about a light-year ahed of the GT500.

I highly question the wisdom of modifying a brand new $50-$70K+ car anyway but if you are looking for a platform to modify, I'd rather start with a ZO6 because at the end of the day I suggest you'll wind up with a better car, dollar spent on the ZO6 vs dollar spend on the GT500 if for no other reason then it's a better platform to start with.

Even if the GT500 can be 'easily' modified to beat up on a ZO6 in a 1/4 mile, last time I checked, most roads have curves and I'd rather be thrashing around a corner in a 3,300lb 500+ HP 'Vette than a 700HP, 4,000lb GT500 any day.

(special note, curb weights are approximate only as I didn't feel like bothering to look up the specific numbers on their respective web sites).

greg_nate

Since when is a Camshaft a bolton? Is this what you honestly believe?

Go to your room and stand in the corner, and don't come out until you've thought about it.

Whitten

Lets talk about these issues here for a moment.

I know that I posted about the GT-500 and more than likely ignited that fire but there are some half truths and wholes running around right now about both the LS7's and 5.4 SC GT-500 motors.

I will start with the GT-500 since it seems to be the focus.
The GT-500 will not respond well to intake mods with out a tune. Dealerships are already advised to warn customers that if they do change their intakes to an aftermaket setup that they are subject to loosing their warranty.

Reason: The new computers a derivative of the Spanish Oak computer in the GT mustang freaks out and has a tendancy to run way to lean after a less restrictive intake is put on due to the totally different values the MAF sees as a result of the better less restrictive intake. It is true that with a tune and an intake people are seeing on averag a 50 RWHP gain over the average of 420-430 RWHP on a stock setup.

Second issue, 600 RWHP is nearing 700 crank HP figuring a 15% loss. It is well known that the Mahle forged I beam rods are safe up to 650 crank HP. It is at this point that one would be wise to switch to a rod more like the Manley H beam 4340 that was in the 03 Cobra. What this basicly means is that 550 hp is safe. Past that you are going to be gamlbling with the life of the engine. Yes there will be 600 HP GT-500's on stock internals, but just like the 03 Cobras there is a weak link and it just so happens it isn't cheap pistons but weaker rods.

Now for the LS7, I am sad to say I doubt we will be seeing it in the Camaro. It is my dream to have one in a Camaro but alas they seem to be moving forward with new and different ideas. I have to be real honest I would rather have the LS7 over a supercharged motor regardless of how much more mod friendly the blower motor might be.

The LS7 rates at 505 and dynos on average of 460 to the rear wheels. A tune has put them into the 500 RWHP range alone. I have first hand experience seeing that a cam and a tune renderes the LS7 capable of 540 RWHP on a very safe and non agressive tune or cam coupled with headers.

Realize also that the LS7 is very new as well and as time goes on new and better products will come out to further improve it's performance. 600 RWHP LS7 are going to be common...period. The motor can do it and is in no way maxed out especially with as little is out for it at this time.


Point is, the Camaro can beat the GT-500 and it will. All it has to do is adhear to several things.
#1 less weight
#2 better engineering(for us that like to go in more than one direction)
#3 broad and strong power curve even if it is rated 50 hp less.

greg_nate

Finally, someone I can speak with. I *FULLY* agree that the C6Z is the best there is - period....that is, if you can fork over $70,000. It competes at the supercar level. No question about it.

Which car is all around better? Z06 by lightyears. Road course, track course, 1/4 mile, I'd take the C6Z anyday over anything else - including the Euro exotics.

Now, for the average Joe American, who want's to quickly get 550rwhp from a stock car off the showroom floor, I still believe the GT500 is the best buy. Hennessey is claiming 635hp/tq at the flywheel with boltons and a tune. There are others too who are in the works with bolton packages. Roush claims 700rwhp with their new blower.

Again, personally I would take the Vette - even a C5 over the Stang. However, people are going to find the flexibility of the GT500 engine platform very attractive. They will not care about the handling, nor will they care about the curb weight. They will not care about the cheap interior. They will only care about investing as little as possible into the engine and a new set of sticky rear tires.

And like I said earlier, they are doing this right now, as we debate. They are not waiting three years for an unknown entity to be produced. They are getting these numbers today. Two years from now those numbers will have increased dramatically.

These things are going to command huge respect on the streets from those who street race. I don't like them and wouldn't own one, but that doesn't mean I am going to ridicule and deny its potency.

Plague

I think there are a few problems with the arguments that have been made. If someone is uneducated, has 50k to spend on a car, and reads that the mustang is easy to mod, they may go buy one for that price.

A more educated person will probably pick a C6 over the it b/c it performs better.

I also have to agree that someone who puts down the HP with the pulley and tune is on borrowed time with the rods that will potentially break. To make the mods that you are talking about and keep the car running for a good period of time, you are getting into non-bolt on mods.

I think the real problem with the arguments that are being made is that a guy is going to spend 50k on a car and only going to spend 1k in mods and be done with it. I don't know, but that idea just wouldn't appeal to me.

greg_nate

Good post. Thank you.

This is what I have been reading too. The tune seems (sofar) to be the mandatory element of all mods at this point.


That's seems to be the $64K question on the boards: "What MAF are you using?" And yes, 50rwhp gain from a tune is stupendous...we LSx owners could only dream of such a thing. Am I jealous? You bet.

Good info. This falls under the "time will tell" category. There are still a lot of 475rwhp 04 Cobras running around on the stock bottom end - when early on, people were saying they'd never hold up. Time has proven all of us skeptics to be wrong...I was one of them. And again, all without going into the engine - boltons and a tune.

All you say is of course true. Where we differ is in opinion. When I used the term "maxed out", I was referring to boltons. I don't consider heads a bolton either. There are two types of people who mod: Those who won't touch the inside of the engine, and those who will. For those who won't touch the inside of the engine, which includes a camshaft, their LS7 is effectively "maxed out". For those more daring, you are totally correct, and I am as anxious as you are with regards to what is in store for the LS7's future.

[/quote]

#1 - significantly less weight...not just 150 pounds. A 300 pound difference is more like it.
#2 - I believe the Zeta will quickly prove to be the better platform.
#3 - I agree. But the GT500's power curve is wicked. The dyno of the 550rwhp that was shown in the other thread displayed a torque curve of something like 500rwtq between 2500 and 5500 rpm. That's no slouch. In fact, that's amazingly impressive.

91_z28_4me

What is the old saying? When you can't prove your point redefine your point and hope that people don't notice.

Bullsh*t. Those who buy a $70K car will probably not touch the engine themselves unless they own some type of performance shop and are modding the car for advertising or just seeing what they can get out of it. Those who mod the GT500 right now seem to mainly be shops and while the hp gains are nice they aren't producing the same type of ET drops that the Terminator Cobras were with similar mods. The point is that the GT500 while looking great on paper isn't showing the performance for the hype, does this sound like a MkIV Supra to anyone else?

greg_nate

What are you arguing about? And who are you arguing with? I sincerely hope your house pets aren't anywhere near you at this point.

With all of the typing you've done, this is your point? A conjecture?

Again, who are you arguing with? Certainly not me, although you keep quoting me. I don't know what it takes to get a point though to some people. Since when is a camshaft a bolton? How many times have I asked that in this thread and how many times have you not answered?

91_z28_4me

I am arguing with you idiot!

Here is your first point from this thread which I disputed when I first quoted you:
I think we were arguing about the cars. Then you started arguing engines. Then you started arguing modded engines and that the LS7 was maxed out. Then you changed your tune again and said the LS7 was maxed out so far as bolt ons because that is what most people will do (and because the GT500's 5.4 SC engine will respond well to bolt ons while the LS7 doesn't have many available.
What is yours? You keep changing it when someone says your wrong and when they come up with a good point you ignore it and change even more.



I never said a camshaft was a bolt on but a camshaft is a compareable mod on a NA engine as a change in pulley is on a SC engine, because they produce similar gains. Even if the camshaft change is more work.

And before this post of yours you asked "when is a camshaft a bolt on" exactly 1 time.