And the Camaro Z/28 can also get an LS2 without stepping on the vette's toes. But you're asking for MORE than the GTO equation. You want more hp and faster for less money. Not going to happen.

The base C6 vette is $45K. That's your starting price for a Camaro with a bigger more powerful engine than the LS2 vette.

 

Ford is getting ready to put a 475-500hp engine in the Mustang, and DC already has a 450+hp engine in the SRT-8 vehicles. The DC vehicles are less than the $45k price point, and the Mustang is projected to be in close to the $40k price point. Obviously the market is there.

 

From what I understand, there has been ONE that ran a 12.5 @ 108 mph. And the LS2 GTO is certainly "close to the 12s", with the big limit being tires/traction, IMO. Look at the tires on the SRT8 vs. the GTO.

But anyway, as for STS-V ($75k) interior in a $25k Camaro: I wouldn't count on it. The STS-V has freaking hand-stitched leather on the dash and doors, for crying out loud.

Sheesh. It isn't like Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords have STS-V or Lexus LS430 interiors in them, either, despite how the lame automags like to pretend they do. They use their share of hard-ish plastics just like the domestics. There is only a certain amount of stuff you can do at a given price point.

 

How many automatic GTO's have even run high 12's?
The GTO weighs a couple hundred pounds less than the SRT-8 and is only "rated" at 25hp less, clearly the SRT-8's are underated.

I'll stand by the STS-V grade interior for 2 reasons.
1) GM starts reasoning, "well it doesn't need great interior materials, it is only a Camaro". Wrong, clearly quality well put together interiors are what customers want or GM and Ford wouldn't be in the crapper. We might as well ask for something more than just average quality, so that maybe average quality interior components will actually end up in the production car.
2) The car is 3 YEARS away. In the course of 3 years Honda and Toyota will probably have updated half of their lineups with new and improved models, while GM is still trying to bring a car people have been asking for to market. The level of refinement and quality will only go up in the coming years, GM needs to anticipate that, instead of bringing the car out, and making it instantly obsolete in terms of interior quality.
Be a LEADER, not a follower, or worse like GM has been recently, Late to the party altogether.

 

GM, you also need to advertise this car, unlike the last Camaro.
Good advertisements also, like on the lines of the Cadillac V series comercials.

 

They won't.

There is a way-cool killer Camaro on the way kiddies...

And 400hp is on the LOW end of the scale. Merely average.

The big gun is going to be well over that figure.

 

For Real? Cause that would be awesome

 

It's the guys who work out bids that you have to worry about. It's these guys screwup that delayed the Solstice. The engineers do a great job, and the accountants are happy as long as the things within budget. But there's plenty of guys who do bids who are squeezing suppliers, and awarding bids based on cost over quality, then feel they've done something great when they can say they saved the company an additional $X.

Anything coming out in 2009 (as the Camaro is) is already done.

There's only the V6 and GT Mustangs. SVT has been MIA since the begining of the year. Shelby will be replacing what used to be the Cobra in May.... as a 2007 car!

You AREN'T going to see the handbuilt and expensive LS7 in the next Camaro... The 6.2 will be replacing the 6.0....you don't need to win horsepower wars to win races.

If they WANT a performance car, then you can't say they DON'T care about performance.

What DOE'S need to be done is that Camaro needs to appeal to a wider range of people who simply want a good looking, well made, easy to live with, sports coupe.

Camaro doesn't need a "very" low price. It needs a competitive price. Camaro's have always matched Mustangs in pricing. They will continue to.

This will equal a few dozen sales.

Actually, it's more feasible to have a single type of axle on all cars than offering 2 types. Ford spent resources modifying the DEW based D2C chassis to accept a live axle, but with 150,000 guaranteed sales annually, and no competition for at least the 1st 2-3 years of production, Ford will more than make up the difference. Camaro isn't going to have that luxury. It's going to be one or the other. In this case, IRS won.

I agree wholeheartedly. But be advised, no one is going to void the warranty on a car they are going to be paying for over the next 5 years by bolting on a supercharger, or other mods.

Also, as a GM fan, I am honest enough to tell you that the LS1/2 engines are terrible when it comes to aftermarket next to the competition.

Chrysler is selling 300C and Charger Hemis like wildfire, and they don't have a following???!

Sure Camaro has a following, but why were sales of the 4th gen (the quickest and by far the fastest Camaros ever made) terrible? So bad that Ford sold 5 Mustangs to every Camaro sold the last couple of years?

It's great to be boiling over with enthusiasm for the Camaro, but unless we are honest about it's shortcomings, and what needs to be done, the next Camaro will end up just as dead as the last one did. Ford will be laughing all the way to the bank, and we'll once again have heaps of clueless people in denial talking about how fast their car is, even though it hasn't been made in years, failed twice, and wouldn't likely come back again.


Remember, more men bought Mustang V6s than Camaro V8s, and Mustang V8s sold to men at a 2 to 1 ratio over V8 Camaros.... even though Ford has FEWER dealers than Chevrolet.

 

Excluding the reason of the Mustang being able to be lived with easier on a daily basis, are there any other reasons that this happened?

 

No, only because Mustang sold so many more units.

 

Sticking with just the V6 Mustangs:

1. Lower insurence.
2. Lower purchase price.
3. Plenty of aftermarket and factory "personalization" items.
4. Relative ease of making the thing quicker cheaply without voiding the warranty.
5. No fewer than 5 Mustang specific magazines full of aftermarket items available at the local 7/11.

For V8 Mustangs, drop #1 & #2, and intensify 3, 4, & 5.

That's just off the top of my head.

 

I voided my powertrain warranty within 4 hours of taking delivery of my SS.

You can bet your life that my Vette will get the same treatment.


WHAT?!?

Guy, you and I see eye to eye on lots of stuff, but this is just flat-out wrong.

A case could be made that the 5.0 liter Ford has a more solid aftermarket than the LSx, but they're seriously old now... and if we're going old school - there's always the mighty Chevrolet small block... which can serve up an a$$-whipping to a Ford small block every which way possible any day of the week, and twice on Tuesdays.

The less said about Ford transmissions the better...

Apart from that, there's the Ford 4.6... which hasn't exactly set the world on fire...

***COUGH***boat anchor***COUGH***

Nope, sorry... of the late-model modern engines, the LSx is the aftermarket king of the hill.

Even with the old LS1's, 400 rwhp is a cam and some low-buck intake/exhaust mods away.

 

GM purchases parts based on a spec or drawing/model. The tech data package given to the suppliers contains all of the requirements for this part as specified by Engineering and QA, e.g. materials, tolerances, finishes, failure rate, etc. It is the buyer's job to find the best value that meets that spec. Buyers cannot accept a cheaper part if it doesn't meet those requirements, unless Engineering and QA sign off on the discrepancies.

 

There are a few current issues with this analysis, but that's the way it's supposed to work...

1) Engineers at GM aren't very good at specifying anything anymore. With a few exceptions they are mostly contract design release engineers, NOT subject matter experts.

Wanna shoot a manufacturing organization square in the a$$? Hire contract engineers who are in a constant state of "Learning Curve" because of turnover, and are therefore never getting to the point of proficiency.

BTW- It's GM's own damned fault about the turnover as contract engineers are treated like second (or third...) class citizens, and GM has ZERO loyalty towards them - so they, in turn, do what is in their own best interests... leave the INSTANT they find a little more money elsewhere. Anybody who thinks otherwise is delusional - INCLUDING GM SENIOR MANAGEMENT.

2) You can only squeeze the turnip so far. And GM Purchasing is doing NOTHING but squeezing, which is one of the core reasons why the supply base truly hates GM. At some point suppliers are forced to make decisions along the lines of:

"I either make a change without telling GM about it to make some profit or I go out of business."

Guess which one the supplier is going to choose?

There is no room for a reasonable business transaction - something along the lines of:

"I make a fair profit, you get a world-class product."

The entire industry has followed GM's model for the last 10 years or so and we're all swirling our way down the toilet together.

IT DOESN'T WORK. EITHER WAKE UP OR WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE WORKING AT McDONALD'S (all of us... including the GM folks).

 

Pacer, you are wrong on this one.

How much hp a mod may generate has absolutally no bearing on availability of mods, or the companies who produce them. As GuionM has said, there are at least 5 mainstream magazines that focus on the Mustang alone. These days, at least half, or more, of the articles are on the 4.6, and many are comparing mods for them. You can read one article that will compare 15 different companies exhaust headers................ or 10 different heads.................... or 10 different supercharger systems.

The Mustang aftermarket is HUGE. It is huge in the way that the small block Chevy aftermarket was. Whether you dislike the 4.6............. and that is certainly your perogative............. to dismiss the aftermarket for it, due to your dislike, is silly. The Mustang aftermarket doesn't care what engine is in the car............... they will make parts for it............. because it will sell.............. and sell in huge numbers. Add in the fact that Ford actively helps the aftermarket, by providing cars before they reach production, and offering propriotary computer information to certain companies, ensures the availability of this aftermarket.