View Poll Results: How much would you pay per pound to save weight?
Zero.
17
31.48%
$5 per pound
13
24.07%
$10 per pound
17
31.48%
$15 per pound
7
12.96%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll
How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
01-05-2006 | 02:10 PM
#76
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
Equivalent drivers AND equivalent tires, my money's still on the C5.
Given competent drivers in each car, tires will make a WORLD of difference. You guys got specifics on driver competence and tires used on each?
Having seen Dodge Omnis outrun Vipers at the track, I know full well that it is *possible* for a 4th gen to whup up on a C5. But given the two above stipulations and stock cars, I still don't see it happ'nin.
Though I appreciate as much as anyone the incredulity of overdogs having been beaten by "lesser" machinery at the track
Given competent drivers in each car, tires will make a WORLD of difference. You guys got specifics on driver competence and tires used on each?
Having seen Dodge Omnis outrun Vipers at the track, I know full well that it is *possible* for a 4th gen to whup up on a C5. But given the two above stipulations and stock cars, I still don't see it happ'nin.
Though I appreciate as much as anyone the incredulity of overdogs having been beaten by "lesser" machinery at the track
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=70
01-05-2006 | 02:17 PM
#77
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 356
From: Providence, RI, USA
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Doug Harden
'Bad Dave' reminded me more than once to back off the C5 in front of me...(but then again, I'm an aggressive driver).
Now as a C5 owner, I'd like to try it again....but part of me thinks the difference is the "typical" C5 owner doesn't drive his/her car at the levels the Camaro SS owner is willing to drive.......
What I'd like to know is, where are all the New England F-body road course drivers? Don't see too many at COMSCC time trial events, a couple at best. Corvettes and Mustangs are FAR more plentiful.
01-05-2006 | 02:19 PM
#78
Disciple
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,479
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
Equivalent drivers AND equivalent tires, my money's still on the C5.
Given competent drivers in each car, tires will make a WORLD of difference. You guys got specifics on driver competence and tires used on each?
Given competent drivers in each car, tires will make a WORLD of difference. You guys got specifics on driver competence and tires used on each?
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showp...&postcount=148
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
What I'd like to know is, where are all the New England F-body road course drivers? Don't see too many at COMSCC time trial events, a couple at best. Corvettes and Mustangs are FAR more plentiful.
Last edited by poSSum; 01-05-2006 at 02:25 PM.
01-05-2006 | 02:21 PM
#79
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 356
From: Providence, RI, USA
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Chris, thanks for the link to like three posts ago, I already saw that. I totally disagree with that point, though. I'll go as far as stock (or near stock) tire size, but for it to be a TRUE car vs. car comparison, you can't have one on much better tires. Anybody halfway serious is gonna get R-compound tires for the track anyway.
MHO, FWIW...
MHO, FWIW...
01-05-2006 | 02:26 PM
#80
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Well then you're comparing apples to oranges and therefore the comparison is totally invalid .
Tires are part of the car as sold.
If all cars came w/o tires and you supplied your own then I'd concede the point. Its not like handling and chassis design is done 100% independent of tires.
If you can change tires for the comparo, then why not shocks? Those are wear items too? What about swapping in more agressive brake compounds then too? They're also wear items. See, you have to draw a line somewhere otherwise its a total waste of time as the end of the argument is 2 totally non-stock vehicles.
As-is off the lot, that's the only legit way to compare.
. Tires are part of the car as sold.
If all cars came w/o tires and you supplied your own then I'd concede the point. Its not like handling and chassis design is done 100% independent of tires.
If you can change tires for the comparo, then why not shocks? Those are wear items too? What about swapping in more agressive brake compounds then too? They're also wear items. See, you have to draw a line somewhere otherwise its a total waste of time as the end of the argument is 2 totally non-stock vehicles.
As-is off the lot, that's the only legit way to compare.
01-05-2006 | 02:33 PM
#81
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by poSSum
....Giving more credence to my hypothesis that a USED Z06 will be the primary sales competitor to a new "track edition" 5th gen. I honestly don't believe there is enough of a market there.
I asked Scott at the '04 BG Summit if I bought a used C5, would I be happy trading it in for a '08 / '09 Z/28? He didn't have an answer for me at the time.....
I'm hoping that whatever is the top performing model Camaro will be as good as an 8 - 9 year old Corvette.....
01-05-2006 | 02:37 PM
#82
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Tires aren't some kind of huge mod though. To see what the vehicles actual handling limits are, it would be much more of a fair comparison to put the same tires on both cars. I have hear more than once that GTOs don't handle that well, but I don't think that is a totally fair critism, given the fact that (the 04s at least) came with some pretty crappy all season tires on them.
I will say this though. It is not like the c5 Vette's stock tires are garbage as far as a factory street radial goes.
I will say this though. It is not like the c5 Vette's stock tires are garbage as far as a factory street radial goes.
01-05-2006 | 03:05 PM
#84
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 356
From: Providence, RI, USA
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Chris 96 WS6
Well then you're comparing apples to oranges and therefore the comparison is totally invalid .
.In the motorcycle world, SERIOUS comparison tests are only done on otherwise stock machines with the same control tires.
If you can change tires for the comparo, then why not shocks? Those are wear items too? What about swapping in more agressive brake compounds then too? They're also wear items. See, you have to draw a line somewhere otherwise its a total waste of time as the end of the argument is 2 totally non-stock vehicles.
FWIW, in Showroom Stock racing you can replace the shocks and brake pads with more track-worthy components. But for a street-car comparison, I'd say stock for those parts would be the way to go.
As-is off the lot, that's the only legit way to compare.
01-05-2006 | 09:46 PM
#85
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
Equivalent drivers AND equivalent tires, my money's still on the C5.
Not that I doubt the story, mind you. And it's great Camaro folklore.
01-05-2006 | 09:49 PM
#86
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Doug Harden
I asked Scott at the '04 BG Summit if I bought a used C5, would I be happy trading it in for a '08 / '09 Z/28? He didn't have an answer for me at the time.....
01-05-2006 | 10:14 PM
#87
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by PacerX
The prosecution rests.
Glad we can finally put a bullet in 3rd gen vs. 4th gen SS handling rumors.
01-05-2006 | 11:04 PM
#88
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,979
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
All that proves is that I felt my lowly 3rd gen handled better than a top of the line 4th gen in 1993.
We agree.
Once and for all time... well... at least until the next SS debuts...
The mighty 4th generation Camaro SS:
The best handling Camaro ever.
01-05-2006 | 11:09 PM
#89
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by guionM
But the thing is, and this has been beaten to the ground, there has to be a balence.
Alumunum, titainium, or angel dust add to the cost of a car. In a car like the Impala-Monte Carlo-LeCrosse-Grand Prix that sell half a mil per year can afford to have more exotic materials than a car expected to sell 100K per year at the same price. There has to be a profit of whatever level on the whole vehicle line. The price point per car can be lower on the W because there's going to be a million or more sold every 2 years. Lower production cars need a higher profit margin to be worthwhile.
Alumunum, titainium, or angel dust add to the cost of a car. In a car like the Impala-Monte Carlo-LeCrosse-Grand Prix that sell half a mil per year can afford to have more exotic materials than a car expected to sell 100K per year at the same price. There has to be a profit of whatever level on the whole vehicle line. The price point per car can be lower on the W because there's going to be a million or more sold every 2 years. Lower production cars need a higher profit margin to be worthwhile.
I mean where's the limit? Where's your personal limit? Is a 3,900 lbs Camaro ok? 4,200 lbs? Where?
GM will FIND a way to build a lighter Camaro economically, IF they feel the consumer demands it. I hate to say it Guy, but you're giving them a free ride.
01-06-2006 | 12:26 AM
#90
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: How much more per pound would you pay to reduce mass?
Originally Posted by PacerX
Good.
We agree.
Once and for all time... well... at least until the next SS debuts...
The mighty 4th generation Camaro SS:
The best handling Camaro ever.
We agree.
Once and for all time... well... at least until the next SS debuts...
The mighty 4th generation Camaro SS:
The best handling Camaro ever.
