Guy,
Please explain where you get some of your facts about the LS1/GTO/Mustang...

"Facts" at a quick glance:

We could argue LS1 numbers all day, it wouldn't matter. Unless the LS1 F-Body has the most efficient drive train ever, I would say the numbers are a bit north of what you quoted. Go look at members on this board's dyno results... Again, that has a lot to do with year, etc... Also, the 4th gen F-Body used 3.42 gears in the M6 LS1 cars.

FYI the GTO used 3.46 gears.

<sigh>
You're not going to give this one up are you? Seriously STOP touting that the 2005(+) GT is on the same level of performance as an LS1 F-Body. I don't want to start a pissing match, but every time you fire this statement out, it is met with resistance for a reason. The reason is; it simply isn't true. The new Mustang is no LS1 killer. It doesn't hang. Period. The best driven GTs are around 1/2 second slower in the 1/4 mile than the best driven LS1s. Stop magazine racing and spend some time at the track if you think we're all lying to you.

Again, I challenge you to stop magazine racing and spend some time at the track. A well driven LS2 GTO is a great race for a well driven LS1 F-Body. This really is a drivers race, with the nod going to the F-Body since it is easier to handle with the solid axle vs. the GTO's IRS. Again, given two equal drivers it should be a dead heat...

 

you've got it backwards

the numbers you posted for hp/lbs are actually lbs/hp... 3741/300=12.47 for instance.. a lower number in this case is better

 

a couple of thoughts --

LS1 car times did improve -- that's because the engines broke in -- (trust me on this.....) Further, there will always be production tolerances that make one engine faster than another. (I remember a 2001 captive test fleet car with 400 miles on the odometer doing a 13.2 at Stanton, MI.....)

The numbers for the new Camaro are not final -- they will improve. (trust me on this as well.......)

Guy -- I'm curious as to where you got your weights -- esp. for the Dodge -- cuz the numbers I've seen from several sources are substantially higher -- (did you look to see if there was an interior in the car???? j/k....)

I know that there will continue to be conjecture --

Now -- all of that said -- Kudos for at least attempting to do some research............which, as some have pointed out, most have apparently not done......

 

Looks to me like the Challenger R/T should get it's *** whooped by the Camaro SS. The current SRT8 is a better comparison and is in trouble against the Camaro SS if you ask me...

I've been doing alot of these power-to-weight ratio calculations over the last couple days. The Camaro SS wins the lbs per hp comparo against all it's new competitors pretty handily.

Then I keep throwing in the C5 Z06 and my numbers go all to hell, lol. 7.7ish lbs/hp... Pretty sure the used Z06 has won the contest for my money for my next purchase...



To beat on a dead horse further, how is the LS1 going to get embarrassed against the Challenger R/T or barely nip Mustang GTs?

If you figure 3450 for curb weight, and a modest 335 hp for the LS1 you get

LS1 Fbody - 10.29 lbs/hp w/ 3.42 gears

That handily beats the either the R/T or Mustang GT, and is backed up by plenty of real world times outside of ridiculous high 13 second magazine runs...

 

the V6 ends all doubt as to which is better...the camaro wins the V6 battle and has more HP then my boss 302 had...the V8's..well...the 5.0L stang will be tuff to beat but i will wait until february when all this should be mute (like it ever ends..ive seen this debate for over 30 years now)

 

So basicly if you want a light sports car buy a mustang, because their 300hp car weighs almost 400lbs less!

The new camaro is a pig. Guess that's what we get with these "modern" cars. They are all growing fat beyond need.

The only plus, i guess, is you'll have better luck ramming them off the road .

 

I highly doubt that a fully assembled V6 Mustang is under 3400 pounds. Isn't that the target for the newer lighter Mustang that's supposed to be getting worked on?

 

You make it sound not so good LOL.

 

As has been astutely pointed out, the lower the pounds per HP is the advantaged vehicle...

 

I agree with just about all of what you posted except this. I've found that the lowest ET's were from the Z28's or Formulas during the LS1 years. The higher profile tires and softer suspension made them easier to launch and as you know the low 60ft is the key. SS's and WS6's did seem to get some slight MPH increases in the trap their stiffer suspension and lower profile tires made them more tricky to launch. Better exhaust and ram air intake do help but the Eagle F1's were not the most drag strip friendly.
Z's with Eagle GSC's did a bit better. Stock for stock that is. Lower weight of the Z28 and even more for a hardtop/cloth "stripper" was probably the quickest. Evan Smith's fastest runs were in a Z28.

As for the 5th Gen's 108 trap speed. Seems to me that GM is being very conservative on their runs. 422hp and 408 tq from the LS3 should get even a 4100 lb race weight, est. SS into higher 12's at probably 110+ mph, the power to weight does support that kind of trap.

I fully expect to put a 2010 SS 6m into the high 12's off the showroom floor, if not the same day of delivery. I don't think it will be very hard. One unknown is the IRS and how mcuh power it will take from the LS3 and how much axle hop we'll get.

 

So I wasted a bunch of time putting some numbers together.


Link to Larger Chart

Disclaimer – Everything is taken from best available evidence. If there’s anything you disagree with, I can change it and compare the new results.
Mustang
Didn’t use the GT weight of 3356. Everything reliable says 3450 and 3500.
Challenger
Only one weight published for each Challenger. I assumed these are auto weights and took the 10lb difference between the auto and manual that guy quoted for the R/T and generously gave the SRT8 a 50 lb weight loss with the manual.
4th Gen
Included b/c it is a point of comparison. Numbers are 2002 specs given by GM. Couldn’t find weights for SS, so I added 100lbs from the Z28.
ET and MPH
The ET and MPH are the best I can find for that make/model by an at least somewhat reputable source. If you have better times, let me know. 2010 Camaro times are those released by GM.
P to W
Stands for power to weight ratio or HP/LBS. Put simply, higher is better.

Few things worth noting:

• In the V6 Category, the 2010 Camaro is the heaviest, but it dominates everywhere else by a long shot.
• The Base V8 category looks about right. The mustang is due for a much needed power boost that it will receive shortly. The SS is a large margin above the rest in P-W. The 1/4 mile times should be much better than the ones published by Edmunds.
• The 4th Gen has a better P-W ratio than the current GT and is a bit behind the R/T.
• In the Top Dog category, the GT500 is walking away with the victory, and compared to everything around it, the 3920 curb weight is looking pretty good. It’ll be interesting to see manual SRT8 and Z/28 (if/when it comes out) results.
• The SS and SRT8 have the same P-W and T-W ratios with an auto. The SRT8 has been able to run a 13.11 with an open-diff. There’s no doubt in my mind that the SS will be in the 12s.

 

Don't forget to expect a small bump in power right before release.

GM has for the last so many years always found another 5-10 HP right before the release of the production cars.

The Solstice, Sky , GP GXP, G8, Z06, ZR-1 and more all gained a little power after their first showings. Kind of a GM tradition of late.

It won't make a big differance but it will change any number slightly we look at now.

 

Where did you get that, a fortune cookie? That's ridiculous.

Horsepower is what makes a car fast. Low-end torque is what makes a car feel fast. If you want to talk about how fast a car feels, then we can talk torque, but not peak torque. You have to compare the torque at the torque converter's stall speed.

Regardless of who wins that contest, though, the car with the best combination of horsepower/weight ratio and gearing will win the race.

Peak, not infinite.

Factory drivers baby the car through shifts. This has a significant effect on trap speed. Evidence: The LS1 SS's factory published trap speed was 105.

Since we all know the LS1 F-body was underrated, I think it'd be fair to use the real power and torque ratings (345/370), not the published ones (and not the halfway-there ones Guy used). All of the other cars on your list have SAE-certified figures which are in no way over- or under-rated.

Totally unfair. Camaro and Challenger haven't been out long enough for people to really find out what the best ET can be. Those 12-second ETs for the 4th gen were at Atco or Englishtown in the Fall, which has a huge density-altitude advantage, and Camaro and Challenger haven't been run there yet.

You should be using manufacturer's published times for all cars, since that's the only figure we have that's available for all of them.

 

See!

We're not going to have anything to worry about.

The F5 will end up quicker than the F4's.

That's good.


***In the interests of not being a Nelly Naggy-Poo, I'll just leave it at that. It looks like it's going to be quicker than an F4 in the quarter, and that's a good thing!!! In truth, to date, I only have one gripe with the car, and I've made it known in my usual... erm... subtle and quiet and dignified way... heh... Anyway, everything else, to my mind, is super-cool.***





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"Infinite" meaning non-linear, not infinite meaning a gigantic number. Probably a poor choice of words on my part. In theory, you can keep driving current into the motor at that point with torque continually increasing, but no longer in a linear fashion.


I can see part of that, but I think another contributor was the engine itself breaking in. LS1's traditionally got significantly quicker as they got some miles on them, and I can see 3mph being made up there fairly easily.



In truth, if a car with a live axle enters the picture compared to cars with IRS's, we oughta be using RWHP.


In general, you and I agree. We may differ on a few of the specifics, but that's picking nits... Here are the important points:

With a 108mph trap, the F5 shows no decided advantage over the F4. It's a driver's race at best, with the live axle in the F4 conferring a couple of important advantages to the F4.

A new Mustang GT is gonna get pounded by a late LS1 F4. This is not longer debatable, and has been proven time and time and time again.

Lastly, the latest information is that the F5's times are about to improve, which will hopefully confer a more decided advantage to it.




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