pickardracing

I know that this has been beaten to death a thousand times but as time goes by and the assumed production eases closer I wonder,

How can they NOT build a Firebird?

Everything that is going on in the market with the new HP wars and RWD cars, in GM with the assumed RWD plans for Pontiac, the seeming inevitable success of Camaro .... etc....

How can they not?

Mustang Killer57

Simple, pontiac will have the GTO. no room for GTO, firbird, and camaro.

DvBoard

Firebird is a DIRECT compeditor with the camaro. GM seems to be assuming that (many) firebird owners will buy the new camaro, or look to a different type of car. aka, if they don't buy a camaro they won't buy a mustang either.

RussStang

Thats a pretty big assumption. There are Firebird owners I have talked to that never even considered a Camaro. Not everybody is a fbody enthusiast. Hell, a lot of people don't even know what an fbody is.

The business case has been discussed to death on here, and even though there could be a chance of the Firebird's revival someday, the odds seem pretty slim. However, I really wish they would bring it back. I don't understand how GM would be so ready to throw out a piece of Americana like that. There are negatives associated with the Firebird name of course, just as there are to the Camaro, but I would bet the positives outweigh the negatives. If Chevy is going to have a 2 rwd coupes (Camaro and Monte Carlo), I don't understand why GM's "performance brand" cannot have two rwd coupes as well, with two different goals in mind.

Mike2001SS

For one thing Firebirds always did cost more than a camaro and only sold half the number of cars and GM wants a car that will sell along the cost of a Mustang and sell alot of cars. Pontiac is a different division of GM anyway.

RussStang

Firebirds only selling half as much as the Camaro is a testament as to how great the Firebirds could have done if all things were equal. How many Chevy dealers are there for every one Pontiac dealer?

Joe K. 96 Zeee!!

I'd say the biggest reason is too much overlap. There's more competition now and the market's smaller leaving less room for two cars that are as similar as Firebird and Camaro. If they could seperate the two more there might be a case.

Pontiac needs more direction, but GM seems to want to lose the boy racer image and be more mature. The traditional Firebird doesn't seem to fit in there. GTO does.

guionM

This is the same old rehash that's been gone over a thousand times to some degree or another here. But I'm still up with nothing better to do, so what the heck.

The biggest reason is like Joe mentioned: Product overlap.

Product overlap is fine where there's a massive market for something. GMC and Chevrolet trucks is a perfect example. The market for trucks and SUVs is so large that GM can offer a specialized line (even though it's almost all just marketing) instead of making a single line cover everything.

But when a market for something is small, unless there is a big enough payoff in association, it makes no sense to do something that in effect will make you compete against yourself. You have to design both vehicles, which cost money (even if it's just sheetmetal and interior pieces). Then there's the advertising and marketing, whose cost is simply staggering. then there's the money spent on support (dealer education and parts & service).


One of the sore spots with the 4th gen's "Team Camaro" was that Pontiac managed to get almost everything they wanted with Firebird, despite Firebird selling in far smaller numbers than Camaro. Firebird had 3 LS1 performance models (Formula, Trans Am, & the Firehawk) to Camaro's 2. 4th gen Firebirds had at least 4 front bumpers, 5 or 6 hoods, 3 rear bumpers, 3 tailights, and more rim choices. Camaro had 2 front bumpers, 4 hoods, 2 tailight designs, & one single rear bumper design it's entire 9 year history whether you bought a '93 V6 Camaro or the last 2002 Camaro SS that rolled off the assembly line. All this stuff Firebird got cost money. Firebird got more therefore it consumed more of the budget set aside for the F-body. Firebird apparently even got their 2002 special edition approved before management considered Camaro's 2002 35th edition.


There's going to be alot of rabid Firebird fans that's going to scream "foul", but their points aren't going to hold up.

1st, that Saturn is getting the Sky. Since the Solstice is low production and the Sky is low production, then GM should make a Firebird even though there's a Camaro. However, the issue with both the Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice is to get an image car that's going to be used as 4 wheeled advertising. The Viper, Ford GT, Corvette, Crossfire & the former Prowler were all used as divisional advertising. Although all broke even or made a small profit, all were done more to call attention to Dodge, Ford, Chevrolet, Chrysler, and Plymouth than they were to make a profit.

On the other hand, cars like the Camaro would never see the light of day unless proven they would be substantially profitable. Where Camaro and Mustang differ from Solstice, Sky, Viper, GT, Prowler, Crossfire, and Corvette is that these will be the 1st new cars for alot of people, and people buy these cars to have fun. These cars (Mustang and Camaro) not only introduce people to the brand, but are used to create new customers based on their experience with these cars. A young Camaro owner might trade in for an Impala when they get a family. Things like that don't happen with Ford GTs.


This brings up the 2nd issue. Firebirds bring in buyers to Pontiac. That may have been an issue back when Pontiac was nipping at Chevrolet's heels in a huge car market dominated by American automakers, and GM owned 50% of the market. GM owns far less than half that market now, and in order for each brand to survive, it must have a distinctive place in General Motors portfolio. Pontiac simply can not be a full line high volume network the way Chevrolet is and the way Pontiac was in the past. Pontiac is going to be more focused. Firebird overlaps Camaro.



There are always going to be a minute, very vocal contingent that's going to say things they feel that have no basis in reality or facts. Saying you know people that would never buy a Camaro over Firebird doesn't hide the fact that Firebirds as a whole sold in low numbers that made no business sense whatsoever, selling even less than the dismal numbers turned in by the 4th gen Camaro. Sure, it has it's rabid fans. But even limited production Corvettes outsold V8 Firebirds the final years. V6 Firebirds were about as common as Mormons in the Vatican. "Team Camaro" has the stats to prove Firebird is a drain on Camaro in sales and investment. And finally, in order for GM to survive, Pontiac is being positioned as an adult performance division. The Grand Prix is a step up from the Impala, just like the GTO is a step up from the Camaro. Pontiac's where you go when you get a little older and have a little more cash to spend.


Some Firebird fans say they would never consider a Camaro. That sounds exactly like something Mustang buyers would say... not someone that looks at General Motors as a single company (which it is). And that's the entire issue in a nutshell. GM is no longer that big, in a market that's that big, or has so much money where it can afford to compete against itself as if it were separate companies.

GM is acting and thinking as a single company. That means a better GM & a Pontiac that survives. This means Firebird (as far as it being a counterpart to Camaro) is dead. But we get a much better Camaro out of it (that money used for design, marketing, and support for 2 cars is instead put to better use in a single car for such things as better materials, more frequent changes, more equptment, etc...).

I8COBRA

I understand there are Camaro fans and Firebird fans, but for the most part most people are F-body fans. I've owned both and enjoyed both equally.

RussStang

It is unlikely a Pontiac is ever going to sell in numbers equalled by a Chevy. There are just far too many Pontiac dealers. One could not have seriously expected the Firebird to sell as many cars as a Camaro. How many Chevy dealerships are there to every Pontiac dealership? 3? 4? What was the ratio of Firebirds to Camaros sold. If all things were equal, and Pontiac had the same ammount of dealer strength that Chevy has, I wonder who would have outsold who.

Yes, the fbodies numbers started to fall at the end of its run. Why are those constantly being used to describe a business case though? The car was too far along without a serious refresh, and had very little advertising. No sh*t it is going to sell slowly. Look at how they sold when they were fresh and new, and had advertising to back them up. With a newly designed Firebird, I doubt the numbers would be as low as they were at the end of the 4th gen's life.

CamaroFan1718

Why no firebird? Because GM said NO thats why.

Last of a Breed

Guy, one thing I want to ask you in your opinion, why do you think Pontiac was able to get approved all of the hoods, spoilers, special editions cars etc. for Firebird over Chevy and Camaro? It seems that Chevy would have the clout over Pontiac considering its dealer structure and the fact that Camaro sold in higher numbers. It seems to me that GM invested more in Firebird? Why would that be?

I've been in on quite a few of these threads for a Firebird revival, and as passionate a Firebird and Pontiac man that I am, I can concede the market factors that limit the possibility of a Firebird based off of Camaro. But I just feel that GM is making a mistake throwing away a name that has garnered 35 years of history and heritage. I beleive Firebird has a place in Pontiac's lineup, if done right.

5thgen69camaro

Obviously I dont agree with the refresh arguments unless they were to fix the 4th gens problems. The Camaro in 93 sold 39,103 and Piqued at 95 122,738 Sorry I dont know the Firebirds numbers. The 1st gens highest selling car was 69 the last year, the 2nd gens was 78-79 just before the last year and the 3rd gens and I may be wrong on this one was 84 I think the 3rd year of 3rd gen? The 4ths was 95 mid Gen in terms of Camaro sales. Yes it could have used a refresh, but if the problems werent going to be addressed which I dont think they would have been, I dont think there would be any point...

Thats based on Camaro, Firebird may be different.

RussStang

I don't know what was so great about the older second gens that made them sell, but your point on the third gen kind of proves my point. The first gen is kind of an irrelevant example to me, considering there were only 3 years of them in the running, and the 69 was substantially redone over the 67/68 models. Besides, as it has been noted, in todays world the coupe market is a much more aggressive market place, and coupes need to stay fresh to stay alive.

5thgen69camaro

Ignoring the 69, the 68 sold more than the 67. I attribute the older second gen sales to Smokey and the Bandit and end of the gas crunch. Their design appears fairly unchanged since 74. The 3rd gen pique was the 3rd year in. The 4th gen at 95 was also the 3rd year in. Yes I agree mild refreshes are needed every so often the way BMW has, however I think that issue pales in comparison to the lack of day to day usability and ease of maintence that really hurt 4th gen sales. The 4th gen was supposed to be killed in 01 if I remember correctly...