People complain all the time on here about the 4th gen's lack of useability, but the 3rd gen was easily just as impractical, and it rode a lot harsher, so I am hard pressed to buy that as a reason to the 4th gen's demise.

 

Fair enough. 3rd gen did have some of the same issues, however the drive train was not pushed under the windshield. This makes for alot of agrivation during maintence and high labor costs when someone else does the work. 200 in labor costs to change plug wires stings. The solution some have gave in defense of the car is dropping the engine is easy. Dropping an engine to change plug wires is a bit much I think...

 

I never thought it was that tough to work on my car. It looks a little daunting, the way the engine does go under the windshield, but it is really not that hard. I don't really think there is much more in the way of labor cost for a 4th gen. Besides, ease of hands on maintenence seldom seems to be a factor in our society today for most people. A lot of people never even look under there hood, let alone do any work on there own car.

 

I dont like having to go to someone else for something that should be as simple as changing plug wires. I broke the wire trying to do a one hand deal from under the car myself. It cost over 200 at the dealer when I provided them with factory wires for the 3800 V6. Had I not done it myself before, I would have thought the dealer was ripping me off. The O2 sensors on the 3800 which I replaced twice might be worth dropping the motor if its as easy as has been said. But still they are sensors that should be easy. There was alot that soured me on the car.

 

I think some of you guys saying, I'de buy a firebird--but never a camaro..etc dont realize thats part of why firebird isnt coming back. They put that stupid GM symbol on all the new cars so people could realize no matter what devision, its still GM. To many people are saying, if i cant get a pontiac, then i'll by foreign...or if i cant get a chevy then i'll by foreign...
To many years of being spoiled with chevy with the volume model, pontiac with porformance, buick with luxury, and cutlass thrown in their too...same car, just some different skin, badges, and options.
Everyone got spoiled and said i only by olds, or i only by buick..etc
Its all GM.
When GM had a hold on the market it might of been ok, but with market share shrinking, it isnt going to work anymore.

 

Well, you can call me rabid Firebird fan #1. Now lets's see how well YOUR points hold up, shall we? I'll try to be concise with my replys.
Almost every single product GM makes "overlaps" with another product, whether its "high volume" or not. Its absurd that I even have to say this. There are only so many configurations for a car (doors, size class, drive type, powertrain) I need a 4 door V6 sedan that gets over 25MPG on the highway. Do I buy the Malibu, the G6 or the Aura? If I need something slightly larger do I buy the Impala, Grand Prix or the LaCrosse? If I need something smaller with a 4Cyl do I go for the Cobalt, the G5, or the Ion. If I need more cargo in a small car i get to choose between the Vibe and the HHR. Staying away form the "high volume" trucks for the sake of your arguement, how about I spring for a low volume compact pickup? Do I grab the Colorado, the Canyon, or the Isuzu I-280/350. Actually, I think I need a midsized SUV from GM. There can't be many of those, right? Let's see, Trailblazer, Envoy, Ranier, Saab 9-7x, Isuzu Ascender. On second thought, maybe I'll go for something smaller like the Equinox, Torrent, or Vue. This is why the overlap farce holds no water. (Kappas to be addressed further down) They ALL OVERLAP. So if overlap is not allowed, then we can cut all the other divisions now, and stick to building Chevys The reason GM has other divisions is to reach the 85% of car buyers who WILL NOT BUY A CHEVY because they don't identify with the brand. People are as different as snowflakes, and one brand cannot appeal to a majority of people. Sorry, but that's human nature. Why doen't Starbucks only sell one type of coffee?


WoW the Pontiac guys must have had some pretty embarrassing photos of everyone at GM corporate and Chevy, since they apparently had "carte blanche" with Firebird's budget, all at the expense of the poor little red headed stepchild, the Camaro Maybe the omnipotent Pontiac elders can cure world hunger and lower gas back to 10 cents a gallon while they're at it. Here's a clue folks. Firebird's position above Camaro and its lower volume allowed GM to take product risks with it that if succesful, trickled down to the Camaro. Steering wheel radia controls, 12 disc changers, 17" wheels, and SLP conversions are just a few things that debuted in the Firebird and were made available to Chevy once their viability was proven. BTW, the Firebird sold over 50% of the Camaro's volume in the 4th gen, and often approached 2/3. Hardly a paltry sum for a more expensive car with a MUCH smaller dealer network...

So let me get this straight, the $19,995 Solstice and $24k Sky have more in common with the $80,000 Viper, $50,000 Prowler, $30-40K Crossfire, $45,000 Corvette, and $150,000 Ford GT than they do with the Camaro and Mustang because first time buyers can't buy them and step up within the brand? Huh?, Just Huh??? Solstice is the lowest priced Pontiac next to the Vibe and has DRAMATICALLY lowered the average age of Pontiac buyers. Its also got about the highest conquest rate for ANY current GM Car. How's THAT for introducing people to the brand?

Listen, they Solstice/Sky arguement is simple. People thought the roadster market was tapped out and there was no room for GM to enter it with one, let alone 2 cars that would "compete" with each other. Not only have they BOTH been brought to market but they are dominating that market and are sold out. Suddenly, the roadster market is 3 times as big as the "experts" thougt it was. Why, because GM introduced two stunning, compelling "gotta have products. And when you do that, well golly Gee willikers, buyers come out of the woodwork don't they? A Camaro and Firebird done the same way would have the same effect. If Kappa is profitable at 30k with the differentiation they have (as you have posted before) then the Camaro Firebird could only be more profitable at 150k units per year and sharing many more components with their Zeta bretheren, unlike the Kappas. Solstice/Sky certainly prove that GM can do platform sharing right, don't they? Forgive me for answering my own question but yes, yes they do. Trying to dismiss them by grouping them in with cars that are from 2 to 8 times more expensive than them is a joke, and not a funny one.

I agree with most of this, but your key point is incomplete. No, Pontiac can not be a "full line high volume network the way Chevrolet is." However, Buick/Pontiac/GMC most certainly will be. And I guarantee you that neither Buick nor GMC would be more suitabe for a pony car entrant. How can you call Pontiac the "Performance brand" without its best performing car of all time?

Continued below...

 

OK. The Firebird sold from 50-66% as many cars as Camaro, so with minimal investment, they were able to increase Fbody sales by at least 1/3. How does that not make business sense? BTW speaking of facts, is there one car that shares a platform with a Chevy that outsells it? So implying that Firebird has to outsell Camaro in order to justify its existence is ridiculous, since no other sister car does it. Please, just stop it with that one. Without those extra sales from Firebird, is the case even strong enogh for the the 4th gen redesign in '93, or does the car die with the 3rd gen? That's speculation, but I wonder. GTO is a step up from the Camaro, huh? There is a car that filled that slot for 35 years, you may have heard of it...

 

Well put Hoodshaker.

http://www.savethefirebird.com needs some more traffic too.

 

I agree. Very, very well thought out Hoodshaker.

 

Listen to Guy -- he knows of what he speaks on this subject.

Let me ask you this: If you were running GM -- and you saw what the company lost last year -- and you know that the American market is relatively flat at 16.5 to 17 million units a year-- and you, as a buyer (I'm talking the buying public at large here, not just you -- ) have more and more models coming into the market from more and more manufacturers -- would YOU approve a plan to offer a Camaro and a Firebird? (anyone wanna take a guess at what it would cost to make a Camaro look like a Firebird?)

It is not a case of GM saying 'the hell with all you Firebird enthusiasts' -- rather, it's a case of GM surviving in a more and more competitive marketplace where, by the way, the playing field is not a level playing field in the world market.

As an enthusiast, there's nothing I'd like better than to see a new Firebird -- as a business person -- and someone who would like to retire someday -- I can't see it happening.

One last thought -- forget trying to compare the marketplace from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s to today -- it's apples to oranges.

Now -- that said-- I think Pontiac needs a big honkin' V8 car in their line-up -- and that's all I'm gonna say about that!

 

fbodfather-

So why does a gto built on the camaro platform make more business sense than a firebird?

 

Thanks Scott.

I've been through all the "Why not Firebird too" business for quite a few years, and have asked just about everyone at GM about it, have talked to people (who would actually take time to talk about this type of stuff) at DaimlerChrysler about making ponycars for both Chrysler & Dodge divisions, and have talked to people at Ford regarding what it would take to bring Cougar back. They all say basically the same thing and make all the same points.

I'm a Firebird fan from the 70s. Nothing would make me more thrilled than to see a Firebird Trans Am return to the glory it had in the 1970s. But guys, that ain't gonna happen today. Truth is.... and read this very very carefully......NO ONE IS GOING TO CREATE 2 SPORTY COUPES THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE ANY TYPE OF MARKET OVERLAP!!!

You can throw Solstice and Sky around as examples till your arms turn blue, you can quote that friend of a friend who swore off Pontiacs because Firebird isn't coming back, you can take the points I make and disect them till your hearts content, you can swing from the trees and beat your chest till your knuckles bleed, but if any point you came up with had merit, not just GM, but also Ford and Chrysler and an assortment of foreign car makers would have done something similar by now or had something similar in their product plans.
They don't.


There isn't going to be a Camaro based Firebird. The market won't support it, and in today's competitive market and the relative small size and the profit margins needed to produce a volume coupe today, you aren't going to see 2 similar sporty coupes from the same company. GTO is far enough away from Camaro that it's not going to draw the same customers or share the same market. Camaro is going to be a small powerful low cost sport coupe. GTO is going to be a bigger comfortable grand touring coupe. A role Firebird never filled.

If you want a Firebird, your best bet is GM being able to create a different chassis and moving Firebird into a market different from Camaro.


It's great to be passionate about a car, but the car business is a business 1st and foremost. If something doesn't have profit or showroom draw or advertising value, it ain't gonna happen.

Go ahead and rip into all this, but it doesn't change a thing.

It's not GM, it's not Pontiac, it's not anyone turning their backs on anyone.

It's reality. Unfortunately, it also sucks.

 

Because more than likely GTO will differentiate itself as it had in the past being bigger rather than a sister car. My guess is that most Firebird buyers will move to Camaro. The market is small to begin with and its close as you will get. I think the GTO will be a little longer, offering more rear leg room and possibly trunk room creating more diversity without competing directly with another GM product. The number of those who would rather go import than buy Camaro, wont be enough to justify the car at this point anyway...

 

For all the rabid firebird faithful(saying all is a bit ironic considering there aren't that many), just answer a couple question. How many cars like Mustang exist right now? How many will exist in another 5 years? You really think if a car manufacturer thought there was enough room for another model based on a similar existing car platform, and it would be profitable they wouldn't already be doing it? You don't think there would be a stable mate for mustang?

That's all I think needs to be said.