I find myself asking this question...
06-05-2006, 12:45 PM
#31
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro
Because more than likely GTO will differentiate itself as it had in the past being bigger rather than a sister car. My guess is that most Firebird buyers will move to Camaro.
06-05-2006, 05:03 PM
#33
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by Fbodfather
Listen to Guy -- he knows of what he speaks on this subject.
Let me ask you this: If you were running GM -- and you saw what the company lost last year -- and you know that the American market is relatively flat at 16.5 to 17 million units a year-- and you, as a buyer (I'm talking the buying public at large here, not just you -- ) have more and more models coming into the market from more and more manufacturers -- would YOU approve a plan to offer a Camaro and a Firebird? (anyone wanna take a guess at what it would cost to make a Camaro look like a Firebird?)
It is not a case of GM saying 'the hell with all you Firebird enthusiasts' -- rather, it's a case of GM surviving in a more and more competitive marketplace where, by the way, the playing field is not a level playing field in the world market.
As an enthusiast, there's nothing I'd like better than to see a new Firebird -- as a business person -- and someone who would like to retire someday -- I can't see it happening.
One last thought -- forget trying to compare the marketplace from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s to today -- it's apples to oranges.
Now -- that said-- I think Pontiac needs a big honkin' V8 car in their line-up -- and that's all I'm gonna say about that!
Let me ask you this: If you were running GM -- and you saw what the company lost last year -- and you know that the American market is relatively flat at 16.5 to 17 million units a year-- and you, as a buyer (I'm talking the buying public at large here, not just you -- ) have more and more models coming into the market from more and more manufacturers -- would YOU approve a plan to offer a Camaro and a Firebird? (anyone wanna take a guess at what it would cost to make a Camaro look like a Firebird?)
It is not a case of GM saying 'the hell with all you Firebird enthusiasts' -- rather, it's a case of GM surviving in a more and more competitive marketplace where, by the way, the playing field is not a level playing field in the world market.
As an enthusiast, there's nothing I'd like better than to see a new Firebird -- as a business person -- and someone who would like to retire someday -- I can't see it happening.
One last thought -- forget trying to compare the marketplace from the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s to today -- it's apples to oranges.
Now -- that said-- I think Pontiac needs a big honkin' V8 car in their line-up -- and that's all I'm gonna say about that!
06-05-2006, 11:37 PM
#34
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by PacerX
Doubt it.
06-06-2006, 12:01 AM
#35
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by triggerjerk
fbodfather-
So why does a gto built on the camaro platform make more business sense than a firebird?
So why does a gto built on the camaro platform make more business sense than a firebird?
because a GTO would be slightly larger than a Camaro -- and have more rear seat room -- meaning a mid-size coupe versus a 'pony car' (gawd, I hate that term!)
Think about it: Historically, the GTO has been an intermediate (now known as mid-size coupe) whereas the Firebird and Camaro were smaller --
Does it make sense to build a Camaro, a Monte Carlo, a Firebird, and a GTO knowing that the coupe market remains around 350,000 units a year? The answer is a resounding 'no.' Yes, I hate to say it -- but you simply cannot rationalize all of those entries which cannibalize each other in the market.
06-06-2006, 12:02 AM
#36
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by 97z28/m6
cobalt & G5
Zero interior investment for G5 coupe over Cobalt.
Very little is going to marketing the thing.
Unless one wants a new grill insert and a Firebird badge on a Camaro and nothing more, that's hardly a Firebird! Given the guys riled up over the lack of a Firebird, who want a 4 passenger Corvette on steroids lookalike, it would hardly begin to satisfy anyone.
Originally Posted by RussStang
Why? Who is to say that a Firebird owner who wanted a new Firebird pony car wouldn't go with a Mustang? It is the only thing on the market right now anyway, so up until this point in time my statement on that technical holds some water.
Firebird fans are pretty rabid about their car. They would rather drink rat poisoned Kool-Aid instead of buying anything else. And Pontiac performance fans are actually grabbing GTOs, which are actually selling better than similarly priced Firebirds were.
On the other hand, V8 RWD coupe fans on a budget (which demographics show wasn't prime Firebird buyers) of course will go to the only game in town.
Bottom line:
1. There aren't enough Firebird fans to justify making the car.
2. The gains Camaro will get in both investment (better car) and buyers (people intrested in more than just an engine in a box) far outweigh any loss from the few fans that let such things bug them.
3. Although there are people kicking and screaming, if they are ACTUALLY going to buy a 4 passenger pony car (and not just the kiddies making big noise with no means to buy more than a stripped Cavalier) with a GM made 400+ horse engine, they are going to either come around and buy a Camaro, or they are going to eventially buy a GTO.
4. And finally, if there was any ability or merit, or possibility, or any way of making 2 coupes within the same company that overlapped buyers, Ford would have no problem also making the case for a Mustang based Cougar and there would be a Chrysler sporty coupe, and the G35 would also be selling in Toyota showrooms. None of this is the case.
Been beaten to death. No Firebird companion to Camaro.
Last edited by guionM; 07-26-2006 at 08:03 AM.
06-06-2006, 12:03 AM
#37
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by RussStang
Why? Who is to say that a Firebird owner who wanted a new Firebird pony car wouldn't go with a Mustang? It is the only thing on the market right now anyway, so up until this point in time my statement on that technical holds some water.
06-06-2006, 12:04 AM
#38
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
That is another thing that confuses me. We keep hearing about how the coupe market won't support both a Camaro and a Firebird, but it will support two larger rwd coupes, the Monte Carlo and GTO? I am having a hard time understanding how the Monte Carlo doesn't overlap anything.
06-06-2006, 12:08 AM
#39
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Let me also chime in with another opinion.
I LOVE the Firebird name and all the monikers that go with it. (OK, I wasn't a fan of the Esprit -- but Trans Am and Formula -- GREAT names!)
I would rather drink Drano, shove 4 feet of razor wire up my rather large 'pontiac-like' nose -- and drive a Mustang!!!! -- than to see GM put the Firebird (or Trans Am or Formula) nameplate on a vehicle that didn't deserve those hallowed names.
Same with Camaro -- I sat in meetings where a "poor unfortunate" would sometimes try to suggest putting the Camaro name on a vehicle that just wasn't anywhere near what a Camaro is or should be. (the 'poor unfortunate' has not been seen since!!!)
( I LOVE having all those black Suburbans at my disposal!!)
I LOVE the Firebird name and all the monikers that go with it. (OK, I wasn't a fan of the Esprit -- but Trans Am and Formula -- GREAT names!)
I would rather drink Drano, shove 4 feet of razor wire up my rather large 'pontiac-like' nose -- and drive a Mustang!!!! -- than to see GM put the Firebird (or Trans Am or Formula) nameplate on a vehicle that didn't deserve those hallowed names.
Same with Camaro -- I sat in meetings where a "poor unfortunate" would sometimes try to suggest putting the Camaro name on a vehicle that just wasn't anywhere near what a Camaro is or should be. (the 'poor unfortunate' has not been seen since!!!)
( I LOVE having all those black Suburbans at my disposal!!)
06-06-2006, 12:16 AM
#40
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
So I guess a Solstice coupe sized Firebird is probably out of the question then? What about the Monte? Not sure if you got a chance to read my last post about it.
06-06-2006, 06:48 AM
#43
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by guionM
Zero sheet metal investment for the G5 coupe over Cobalt.
Zero interior investment for G5 coupe over Cobalt.
Very little is going to marketing the thing.
Zero interior investment for G5 coupe over Cobalt.
Very little is going to marketing the thing.
so it still begs why no firebird? they had a business case for it for 35 years yet not now? and i don't buy the "theres no market for it" BS as if that was the case there would be no G5. all GM is doing is screwing over firebird fans.
06-06-2006, 02:38 PM
#44
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Hmm, so if I'm hearing you guys correctly then the bottom line of your arguement is that the 350,000 car-a-year coupe segment isn't big enough for two new GM entries? After the Mustang takes it's 200k, the Monte Carlo take it's 60k, the also-rans take their chunk, two GM pony cars just can't be done, right?
If you look at an even smaller segment, let's say roadsters for example. That segment produces only about 100,000 sales annually. Somehow, a few crazy kids at GM got the idea to design and build not one, but two stunning roadsters for two different divisions that just happen to be sold out at their production capacity of 30,000 per year. On the same platform, with different interiors, not sharing a single body panel.
They went form 0 to 30% of that segment in a year's time. Where did those buyers come from, and why?
Some are people who never considered a roadster before they saw the Sky or Solstice. Many are conquest buyers who were intending to buy other Makes. Miata, who has owned the segmnt for over a decade could go from first to 3rd in a year and a half.
It seems to have been conceded that the Camaro will do 100-120k and the Mustang will continue to crank along at 180-200k. I feel that is small minded thinking that continues to facilitate the erosion of market share. Why can't a well done Camaro and Firebird knock off the sales champ and do 200k combined, while the mustang drops to @120k eating the crumbs from the GM table? Is Ford that much more capable of building a Pony car? I hope not.
Maybe the market is only too small when the available offerings are mediocre at best.
If you look at an even smaller segment, let's say roadsters for example. That segment produces only about 100,000 sales annually. Somehow, a few crazy kids at GM got the idea to design and build not one, but two stunning roadsters for two different divisions that just happen to be sold out at their production capacity of 30,000 per year. On the same platform, with different interiors, not sharing a single body panel.
They went form 0 to 30% of that segment in a year's time. Where did those buyers come from, and why?
Some are people who never considered a roadster before they saw the Sky or Solstice. Many are conquest buyers who were intending to buy other Makes. Miata, who has owned the segmnt for over a decade could go from first to 3rd in a year and a half.
It seems to have been conceded that the Camaro will do 100-120k and the Mustang will continue to crank along at 180-200k. I feel that is small minded thinking that continues to facilitate the erosion of market share. Why can't a well done Camaro and Firebird knock off the sales champ and do 200k combined, while the mustang drops to @120k eating the crumbs from the GM table? Is Ford that much more capable of building a Pony car? I hope not.
Maybe the market is only too small when the available offerings are mediocre at best.
06-08-2006, 11:43 PM
#45
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Re: I find myself asking this question...
Originally Posted by guionM
If you want a Firebird, your best bet is GM being able to create a different chassis and moving Firebird into a market different from Camaro.