Suppose that Jones owns a 1970 Camaro. Let's say that the Camaro that Jones owns is a 1970, and that Jones has been the sole owner of the Camaro. As a Camaro enthusiast, over the years Jones has kept his Camaro is good working order. He's replaced various parts of the Camaro; the wheels and tires, engine parts, fenders--even the chassis--are entirely new. After thorty some years of ownership, Jones ends up replacing every part of the Camaro. Every screw of Jones' 1970 Camaro has been replaced by a new or better part.

This scenario raises two issues about the identity of the 1970 Camaro.

Is Jones' Camaro the *same* Camaro that he bought in 1970?

And second: suppose that, ubeknownst to Jones, Jones' son collects all of the disgarded Camaro parts and builds himself a 1970 Camaro. Which Camaro--the Camaro that Jones owns or the Camaro that Jones' son owns--is the *original* Camaro?

 

What in god's name are you on about?

It's a camaro, it's ****in' fast, and it's fun.
It's a package all in one.

 

You have to much time on your hands.

 

Of course the one with the original VIN and title is the *original* Camaro.

 

I wonder if it isn't a bit counterintuitive to think that Jones' 1970 Camaro vin number *consitutes* the identity of the Camaro; it's reasonable to suppose that whatever the original car is (and whatever *makes* it original) consits of more than its vin.

Consider an illustration showing why. Maybe Jones' freind, Paul, steals Jones' vin and fixes it to his 1973 Camaro. (Maybe Paul thinks he can get more money for his 1973 Camaro by pawning it off as a 1970). It's counterintuitive to think that the identity of Jones' Camaro has changed in any important way.

This might be a good argument that Jones' 1970 Camaro is the same Camaro he bought in 1970: the *physcial space* of Jones' 1970 Camaro remained the same over the years, so the orignial Camaro is in fact the one that Jones owns.

 

WHAT PAUL IS DOING IS HIGHLY ILLEGAL AND SHOULD NOT BE ATTEMPTED IN THE COURT OF LAW.

JONES SHOULD KNOW BETTER, TOO, THAN TO LET PAUL "SEE" JONE'S CAR TO DO SOME "MODIFYING" AND REMOVAL OF VIN TAGS.

The VIN number *IS* the car. Period. Whether you take off all the panels, it's still a Camaro. It's just 'modified'

 

Ahhh, the old Ship of Theseus paradox I was a philosophy major. That's one of the first metaphysical arguments you get into.
It's funny the way everyone else in this thread has missed the point completely!

 

No,no! It's the Camaro of Jones!

Please contribute to the questions! Interesting and important stuff!

No Camaro fan can go without an answer!

 

I know you think you cooked up a paradox here but your answer is simple.

the Car IS essentially the shell. If you replace the shell you replace the VIN which ID's the car. Once you do that the new shell should have a Clone VIN as it is a new car.

The New Shell with VIN and new parts are a clone and a whole new car. Hot Rod Mag had to get everything legally straight with GM when they built the 1969 clone with the reproduction GM shell and clone VIN "Hot Rod 1" before they could even use the name Camaro.

The origional shell and parts would be a numbers matching origional 1970 Camaro. If those parts were replaced and origionals with the date codes discarded and partial Vin numbers Identifying it as parts that were on that car when it left the factory, it is no longer numbers matching.

 

TBI INYOUREYE:I think you need to dumb that down for people like me who have no clue what you are talking about. IMO The car with the VIN is not original and the car his son built isn't even a car without the VIN tag. They need each other to be the original car. I guess. Wait now I'm all f'ed up.

 

There is no "correct" answer, as this is a paradox. You can bring up all kinds of points about VINs and whatnot, but the heart of this paradox goes deeper than Automobiles, it's a question of identity. To make it a little simpler, think of any object that through time, needs to be repaired, and parts replaced. After a 45 year old car for example has had every original part on that car replaced, is that car still the original car? It was slowly changed over time, it wasn't like someone took Jones' Camaro and stripped it of all original parts at one time and replaced them with new ones. You can (and I have) argured for hours that the identity of that car lies in either it's parts or the whole, but either way you can't reach a definite conclusion about WHEN Jones' Camaro stopped being the original Car, or if it ever stopped being the original car. Arguing that the VIN makes the car is a little silly, if the entire car was suddenly stripped to the chassis in 2006 (unibody, whatever) and all the parts were replaced, the car would still have the same VIN, but I doubt anyone would really feel like it was the same car that was built in 1970.

I doubt that helped much!

 

Actually its not silly at all. look at Ebay at restored or customized cars ground up with whole new drive trains nuts bolts custom uphostry. Look at cars done by Chip Foose when they completely redo origional cars in 'Overhaulin', or Baldwinmotion 69 Camaros. You will have a tough time telling them they dont have a 1st or second gen. The identity of the car IS the shell period. If you are lucky enough to have a origional motor heads carb etc, trans and rear which is RARE then it is numbers match.

If you replace the Shell, the reproduction shell should have a new vin period. That is the point when it becomes a new car. It is not up for debate. It happens all the time. If it makes you feel better to THINK they dont have an origional car the way it makes some feel better to THINK they dont have any debt when they actually do, knock yourself out. The law and collectors back this. You can not put an old vin on a new shell at will as thats illegal, and Boyd Coddington got in trouble for it.

Collectors and enthusiast figured all of this out a long time ago.

 

This isn't about telling someone they don't have a 1969 Camaro just because the parts aren't original. It's about telling that person the don't nececarily have the same 1969 Camaro that rolled off the assembly line. It's a question of individual Identity, and it applies to everything in existance, not just cars with traceable numbers. Think of it from another perspective....since you were born, every cell in your body has died and been replaced since you were born. Does that mean you're not the same person you were when you were born? In a purely physical sense, yes it does. Of course, we're more than just the sum of our molecules, so in another sense it doesn't. This is the kind of argument this paradox is supposed to start.

 

Yes, I understand what arguement it was supposed to evoke. What Im saying is that it does not apply here as stated in replacing every part which would have to include the shell. In your secnario all the cells have died and been replaced. With Vehicles, that simply isnt and cant be the case. What I am trying to say is that if every part of a vehicle were replacable, then you could replace the car many times over creating several cars with that same ID. The manufacturers try to avoid this and ID each vehicle by linking the VIN to the Shell. Every cell in your body has been replaced but in order for the scenerio to work with vehicles you would have to replace the shell, which you cant without replacing the Vehicle's Identification Number and title. Its identity by definition.

 

Clearly the one the son builds is in fact a 5th gen Camaro, and that is why this thread belongs in the 5th gen forum.