Not what your subject said but just for fun and because I cant help it Ill bite.

Id merge buick, saab and, Caddilac. Id kill pontiac and GMC and globalize Holden. Chevy being the mainstay of GM. Id look at buying into Honda like ford did with Mazda merge them with saturn/opel and rebrand the surviving company Honda. If the Honda deal went through I would have them collaborate with Saab on a bullet proof butter smooth 4cyl killing the ridgline. I would throw out strict tradition in favor of simplicity of where the future may lie, and start over. By that time Honda/Saab powered 4cyl would destroy toyota, while Chevy trucks would do the same on the other end of the spectrum.

Im assuming you reshaped the question from Camaro to if the ship was sinking. This of course is my expert opinion as Junior Junior Junior Mr fatasy exec! Im sure it wont go over well...

 

Camaro failing?
I was driving hope just now and saw a tint shop that just changed their sign. It has a picture of the Camaro Concept on it, twice the size of the shop's name.

 

None of which will have Camaro's heritage and history either.

Seriously though, Toyota and Honda have lacked a halo performance car for so long, are they really going to jump back into the game now? They've made a huge niche market with the greenies who tend to run with the "performance cars kill trees" crowd. Those sales numbers are huge compared against the smaller percentage of enthusiast type buyers. Do they really want to alienate that cash cow?

 

You're completely correct in being concerned. But, if Mustang can continue to absolutely slaughter other sports coupes in sales (sales of new import coupes aren't as popular as many think), then there's a better than good chance that Camaro will regain it's number 2 position, and also outsell import coupes by huge margins as well.

First off, you really don't know your chassis, do you?

Cobalt is a subcompact built off GM's Delta chassis, and was developed in Germany by Opel. It was fine tuned at Nürburgring, and it shares it's chassis not just with the Saturn Ion, but also the new Saturn (and Opel) Astra, & the Opel Zafira as well as the HHR. The new Chevrolet Volt is being based off this platform as well. Cobalt is a vastly improved version of the chassis over the Ion.

As for it being FWD, so what?? As was mentioned in a previous post, that's what younger car enthusiasts are into at the moment. The cars are cheap, light, and therefore, a small mod delivers tangable results right away.

Finally, I doubt you'd find anyone (especially here of all places) who takes CU seriously unless they're buying a minivan or a dependable troublefree new car for their wife or daughter. But if you do take what they said about Cobalt seriously, then you may as well dump your Camaro now. CU ravaged the Camaro as well whenever they tested it.

Bob Lutz is retiring shortly there afterwards (he'll be 80 a couple years after Camaro comes out).

Ric Wagoner is engineering the largest turnaround of any car company in automotive history. If it succeeds (and it already is showing signs it will in a big way) GM's not going to let him go till he retires or dies. In the unlikely event it doesn't work, a $250-300 million (best guess) Camaro program in the multiple billions spent by GM on program development, and the 100K predicted sales of Camaro out of over 4 million vehicles annually isn't going to leave a blemish if it fails.

Again... if Camaro fails, game over.

That includes anything to replace it.

If Camaro fails, GM ISN'T going to create a new skin, a new name, and proclaim it a replacement for the Camaro. If a car like the Camaro... that has over 40 years of history behind it, memories and stories of the current generation of buyers, their parents, and their parent's parents.... fails, there isn't going to be a new body and new name that's going to have the advantages simply having the Camaro name has. It's like saying the Ford Probe replaced the Mustang. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it???


Because the coupe market is small, and the investment going into a new coupe will need to be miniscule, and the fact that after a Camaro disaster, they will put as much distance between the Camaro and itself as it can and look at what's selling, you ARE going to see the Cobalt SS or a similar car taking the place of affordable performance at Chevrolet.

I simply can't stress how fragile the chain of events that transpired to bring back the Camaro were. How timing was pretty near unbelievable. Suppose Holden's then-CEO, Peter Hanenberger, decided to simply modify the VZ Holdens than to invest a mind-numbing & astronomical (for an Australian car maker) billion dollars plus and create a entirely new and easily modifiable structure? Suppose GM's meltdown of early 2005 occured 1 year earlier. Suppose GM's North American Zeta program came to a screaching halt before Camaro got as far along as it did? Twice? Even, suppose GM's Zeta North American Zeta program went ahead, unrestricted (Chevelle and possibly no Camaro?).


You aren't going to get the answer you want. No one is going to say "well... Chevrolet will do this or that and replace the Camaro if it fails", which is what you seem to be expecting. To say "if you can't answer that, stay off the thread", is basically saying you can't handle the answers. So why ask the question?

If Camaro fails, that concludes low priced, V8 powered, pony cars at General Motors.

GM isn't going to rebody anything and slap a name on it and call it a replacement.

GM isn't going to use the Camaro name on anything for years afterwards... if ever.

If (and currently, that's still a BIG "if") Chevrolet gets a coupe from the RWD Alpha chassis, chances are it's star performer will have 4 cylinders, direct injection, a turbocharger, and an intercooler. Less likely, it's top performer will have a direct injected V6. Most likely, it will be in showrooms before Camaro departs, so it won't actually be a replacement.

Finally, Camaro's average buyer (as is Mustang's) isn't "20-something". Mustang's average buyer is 32. 2 door Cobalt's is well in the 20s. The Cobalt SS was competing (and will again) well in the "20-something" performance market.


However, for the record, the Camaro (like the upcoming Ute) are very near fail-proof.

Regarding the Ute, Aussie sales pay for the pocket change it took to develop it, and spare parts from the G8 take care of US federalization. GM sells a few hundred in the US & they make their money back from preparing it for the US. Sell more than that, and the money goes into GM's piggy bank.

With Camaro, actual cost of development is miniscule. But, profit margin per car is likely to be to be razor thin because of the expected low price it'll be sold at versus it's high content, so it will balence out. In short, GM isn't going to make much money on Camaros, but as long as there's an assembly line to piggyback on (and it isn't squeezed out by production demands of other models), Zeta Camaros likely can be made for some time even at very small volumes in the future. Once it's investment is paid (most likely by initial demand the 1st year or so), as long as the profit margin per car is kept, it won't matter how few is sold (within reason of course).

 

Look outside the US for additional sales. I can be sure, and very sure, that the camaro will sell in their thousands in the middle east provided the performance(?hp) and features are there. These people are crazy over performance muscle cars and there's plenty of spending power. The mustang (a huge success here) looks a "mus-quito" compared to the new camaro.

 

It "could" fail if, the price tag is TOO high. It's "SUPPOSED" to be comparabile to the Mustang (WE ALL HOPE) around th 28K range but if they plug this animal at 35K and over, you'll leave a lot of loyal fans PISSED! +combine the fact when gas goes up to $4 a gallon again will surely factor into a failure. Combine the 2 could be a disaster, unless they make a V6 that gets 30mpg then the Camaro will be ok.

 

The Mustang doesn't really have any direct competition (RWD, four-seat, two-door, sub-$35k car). Sure, there are some secondary competition for the younger sporty car buyer (Z, Evo, et al.), but none have the same configuration. This makes it easy to top the sales charts as the other cars are much more targeted for a niche buyer.

However, the cars coming in the near future look to be more direct competition to the Mustang (Camaro, Challenger, Hyundai coupe, if Toyota ever releases the Supra or the potential Corolla/Hachi Roku replacement, etc.) -- all should be 2+2, RWD coupes.

That will be the REAL test of Mustang sales (and it's competition).

 

New Mustang and Camaro buyers actually don't tend to be very young. The average age of a buyer of the new Mustang is 35 years old. 4th gen Camaro was about 40. Z28, SS, and Cobra buyers were well into the mid 40s. Mustang Gt buyers, ironically, tended to be younger than Mustang V6 buyers. Something like 32. Used, alot of these cars end up in younger hands, but as far as paying money directly to GM for these rides, the average age isn't what you'd consider "young"..... unless you're well over 35 yourself.

Camaro (and Mustang) doesn't compete with the Evo, 350Z, or anything other than 2 door coupes and hatchbacks. This comes up time and again from various posters (not just picking on you). Evo is a high performance, AWD version of a 4 door sedan. The Nissan 350Z is a 2 passenger sports car that if anything, competes with a Corvette.

Mustang falls in the same grouping with other 4 passenger sports coupes. This includes the G35 (now G37) from Infinity, the Scion Xc, the Cobalt coupe, and even the upcoming BMW 1 series (and arguably the 3 series).

You are right. Competition is definately going to heat up in the near future.

 

I think we are saying basically the same thing in different ways, but I also think it would be foolish to ignore the Zs of the world. The cars will be cross-shopped. If people have ~$30k to spend and are looking for a fun car, they will compare them all in a "do I really need a back seat?" sort of way. There will also be those that know then want a 2+2, RWD sport coupe and will compare similar cars in different price ranges (G37, et. al.) and compare the cars to see if the more expensive ones would be worth it.

The reason the Camaro is such a difficult car to create is the V6 will compete with one set of cars (Accord Coupe, Altima Coupe, Tc, Mustang V6, etc.) and the V8 will compete with an entirely different set of cars (Mustang GT, Z, Evo) and even up to the G37/335i (in a "can I skip a few meals to afford it?" sort of way ;-) )

The difficulty is the V6 needs to be cheap enough to compete on the lower levels, but the V8 needs to be built well enough to compete against the upper level sports car market. That is virtually impossible to do, so the problem is where to you compromise?

And that is what the competition will do -- provide the consumers different choices in how the slice and dice those compromises.

 

If the Camaro fails they will just make the Firebird.

-Sorry I had to.

 

ROFL!!! It should be the STFU edition Firebird!

 

Sorry but I disagree. If there were to be no return of Camaro, I'd look at the Nissan 350Z before Mustang, or even Corvette for that matter.

 

...so you're implying that Corvette competes with Mustang?

 

I think to some extent it does. Shelby stole the King of the Road Moniker from Vette to slap on a Shelby Mustang in the 60s. GMs been quoted(before 5thgen was official) as saying the Mustang has a broad range and they do it all with one car.

I think it depends on the person doing the shoping as to whether they are competition. For direct competition I dont think it does. If someone definatly needs the 2+2 or wants a no comprimise 2 seater there is no competition. I think the AC Cobra should have solidered on for more direct competition.

 

On the top end? (GT-500 v. base Vette) Absolutely.

I was merely stating, that my next car purchase wish list goes like such...

1. Camaro (top dog)
2. Nissan 350Z
3. Corvette Z51
4. Mustang GT500

If a top dog Camaro weren't available in 2010 (or 2011 etc) then I'll be in the market for a new (or used) 350Z. I'm also throwing around the idea of perhaps even a Lotus Elise.

I main idea is I want a fun, weekend car with neck snapping looks and performance.