Lots of good points made in this thread .

David

 

Guy,

"GM forecast sales of up to 75,000 Azteks per year, and needed to produce 30,000 annually to break even. Just 27,322 were sold in 2001 with more than 50% being sold to captive rental company fleets or used by General Motors executives."

Aztek Production
Year
2001 27,322
2002 27,728
2003 26,928
2004 22,696
2005 *****

It was FORECAST at 75,000 units per year, it never sold that many.

 

The only real problem I have with GM is everytime one of their employees (high up) or insiders comments, the theme of the statements is that GM "given certian circumstances" is/and always is doing the right thing.

In reality the Camaro gets put on pause (technically killed but we all know better than to think its not coming back) in 2003, and since then GM is fighting to convince everyone that they're not going to go bankrupt.

Ummmm..... ok. Then anyone can get on CamaroZ28.com or read the papers and be tolf GM is doing the best business decisons it can. Everything they do is the best idea. and so on...

That's all I get tired of hearing.

"Denile" is more than just a river in Egypt.

Looks at Fords more "free to do anything" disposition. And they still sell coupes like theyre free and hand Silverado is **** in truck sales... year after year after year.

Im not against GM by any means but cut the crap, ya know?

I bet if Mustang ever sold under 75K in 3 years Ford wouldnt ax it.

 

Pacer you did miss what i was trying to say. If it wasnt clear i apologize. I was trying to put myself and hopefully you as well into their minds at that time in order to better understand why whats done was done. Im not trying to make excuses for cars that didnt sell. I would have much rather seen a new Camaro in 03 than the SSR.

 

Why don't you take the Camaro on a talk show and get a paternity test.

 

My bad.

 

its quite alright

 

LOL! I am sure Montel would be up for it

 

How could you say something like this?


Then say something like this??????
I would argue that if it changes signifigantly you will be right back where you were in 2002 which is how you got to 2002 in the first place. And if an 03 was anywhere close to an 02 I would have chalked up a current camaro as GM shooting themselves in the foot again. Id be very interested in how many 1st gen fans such as myself that lost favor with camaro, would now consider a 5th gen because it got back its style and Utility and functionality again such as myself. The same people who go to old car shows who own or just look at what the car once was. Any changes from here should not be made lightly. Quite frankly I dont agree with you. I think alot of milege can be had out of this design.

 

Because it's true.

It truly is a terrific design that combines cues from the late 1960's with Cadillac's A&S theme.

It is also polarizing. Not in an Aztek sorta way, but in the way that will get tired relatively quickly, and cars in this segment have the shortest shelf life of all of them, besides possibly dedicated two-seat sports cars.

PT Cruiser and the Neu Beetle are good examples, btw, of the same issue. And the scary thing is that they have even longer shelf lives than Camaro will because of where they land in the market.

5 years.

Tops.

Then sales will nose-dive, just like the F4's did.



I really can't see your reasoning here.

The car was dying a slow, agonizing death in many respects because it went 10 years without a significant styling revision THREE TIMES (F2, F3, F4) and TWENTY without a clean-sheet redesign (F3-F4).

Now, lots of folks at GM did a great job of beating that horse for 20 years, but in the end it was just not enough to keep the car fresh and viable.

That being said, you may not like the F4's, but they packed a heck of a wallop for the dollar - and were hands-down the fastest and best put together Camaros ever.

But they were also a shell of what they could have been, and WAAAAY too long in the tooth.

If you want an old car, buy an old car. Because if you hang the anchor of having to look like an F1 around the neck of the F6 (yes, F6), you'll kill it dead in no time.

See, nostalgia buyers might buy ONE example of a modern interpretation of a car they love, but 90% of them sure as hell ain't buying TWO of them.

F1's sure are pretty, no denying that, and Scott disagrees somewhat with the following - but my opinion is that there's a WHOLE LOT of Nova underneath an F1.

Camaro is going the OTHER way this time, and being engineered off of what can best be described as a midsize/luxury platform, and GM is taking their time with it.

5 years.

Referring back to your first point...

You do realize, of course, that part of the reason that the F1's are such a classic design is that THEY WEREN'T AROUND FOR VERY LONG. 3ish years, and then replaced by the F2.

What this meant was that the car kept it's distinctiveness because the roads weren't flooded with them (like they were with F2's and F3's) due to production periods measured in DECADES... by which time the early cars that had seen use were rusting themselves into oblivion and damaging sales of NEW Camaros.

Let's say it's 1990... seeing a rusted-out, banged up, 1983 Camaro drive by isn't going to make you run out and buy a 1991 that's basically identical looking except for details.

That's fine.

I'll make a gentlemen's bet with you...

If F5 lasts longer than 5 years, after year 5 of full F5 production, sales will take a huge hit or require massive incentives to maintain.

 

I belive you are right. And I hope that GM knows this, it seems that at least one person does based upon some of Scott's comments. I truely hope we get a refresh of some sort after 4 years and then after another 3-4 years a total re-design. Keep it moving forward and it will continue to sell. Let it stagnate on the market and sells will falll like a Pinto off a cliff.

 

I agree with Pacer as well. 5 years is a good timeline for styling changes/refreshes in this segment. Any longer than that and the designs get old quick. The 5th gen CANNOT do what the 3rd gen and 4th gen did and carry the same them for nearly a decade. Its a hot design for 2005-2007 but will look run down and tired in 2015.

 

Very, very good points, PacerX. Right on the bullseye.

 

If we've learned ANYTHING in the past 36 years, it's what Danno just hit the nail square on the head...you simply can NOT stretch a car's design for more than five years.....especially in today's market...or it will die.

 

I had wrong numbers. My Bad.


Good observation. Highly stylized cars do wear out pretty quickly. A
also, the coupe market is driven by the "latest style". Even the last Mercury Cougar had a short shelf life.

Ford understands this. GM doesn't seem to. The last 3 generation Camaros lasted 12, 11, and 10 seasons with only minor tweaks. During those years, we got to see 5 all new Mustang styles. Not counting tweaks.


Midsized? This is a Large car platform, I'd say.

Kinda large, but at least the design disguises the width.


Another good point. The 2nd, 3rd, and probally soon the 4th gens won't be anywhere near as special as the 1st gens were. I'd even venture out to say that these way-too-long runs are the reson why Camaros have the "mullet" image they do. These cars become so cheap and run so long that anyone can buy them, and you see far more examples that aren't taken care of.


I doubt it will last even that long. I'm predicting Ford will restyle Mustang 2 or 3 years after the new Camaro comes out. I'm pretty sure Ford is studying the new Camaro right now just for that purpose.