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It's time. The official 1LE thread.

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Old 08-04-2008 | 03:06 PM
  #1  
codename BilDoe's Avatar
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It's time. The official 1LE thread.

Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.

What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.


1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8

1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.

2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages

3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats

4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers

5. Double adj. shocks

6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox

7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum

8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.

9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.

10. No sound deadening material

11. No rear seats

12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.

13. ps cooler

14. tranny cooler

15. quicker steering ratio

Last edited by codename BilDoe; 08-04-2008 at 05:27 PM.
Old 08-04-2008 | 03:29 PM
  #2  
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Originally Posted by codename BilDoe
Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.

What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.


1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8

1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.

2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages

3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats

4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers

5. Double adj. shocks

6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox

7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum

8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.

9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.

10. No sound deadening material

11. No rear seats

12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
Might cost more then the actual base car to remove this stuff. How many would they sell? Probably not worth it and no profit to GM.
Old 08-04-2008 | 03:35 PM
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I have attempted to generate some "rubber meets the road" discussions elsewhere on the forum regarding the viability of a next level Camaro.

What is the price point for the market?

I have yet to hear anyone state that I would pay a max of "this" for "this" spec Camaro. There are accusational threads, aspirational threads, but hardly any financial reality threads...

Abstract excercises are fun, amusing, but pointless if a business case isn't the end result.

There's much talk about what folks want, and very little about what they will truly pay for it...

Last edited by 1fastdog; 08-04-2008 at 03:44 PM.
Old 08-04-2008 | 03:43 PM
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Interesting topic.

I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.

This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
Old 08-04-2008 | 03:50 PM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by codename BilDoe
Fact - they're both piggy, .
What areas of performance subsequent to your test drive lead you to characterize the 5th gen V6 and V8 Camaros as a "piggy".

Please be specific.

Last edited by 1fastdog; 08-04-2008 at 03:53 PM.
Old 08-04-2008 | 04:01 PM
  #6  
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Originally Posted by JakeRobb
Interesting topic.

I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.

This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
GM could just follow the same route that Dodge is going to with the Challenger Drag Pack

Mopar built the first two Challenger Drag Race Package Cars for development and testing for its new Challenger Package Car program. Based on the Challenger SRT8®, the prototypes were finished in Stock Eliminator configuration. They ran successfully in June 2008 as proof-of-concept and for NHRA certification. Mopar dropped approximately 1,000 lbs. off the production Challenger SRT8 by eliminating major production components and systems. To accentuate the weight savings, they also feature added composite, polycarbonate and lightweight components designed for drag racing that will be part of the new Package Car program.

The engine was repositioned to improve driveline angle and weight distribution. The 116-inch wheelbase was shortened by ½ inch. They also feature a front cradle with bolt-in crossmember and solid engine mounts.

Mopar will build a minimum of 100 Challenger Drag Race Package Cars to meet NHRA requirements. Based on the production Dodge Challenger SRT8, Mopar's modern factory-prepped Challenger Drag Race Package Car will begin as a special Body-in-White (BIW) from Chrysler's Brampton, Ontario, Canada, assembly plant. The body sealer, sound deadener and undercoat will be eliminated. To reduce vehicle weight, major production component and systems will also be eliminated including: windshield wiper assembly, complete HVAC system, all airbag components, rear seats, power steering system, exhaust system and underbody heat shields, cross-car and side impact door beams, rear bumper beam and rear deck lid spoiler.
Well, it would be neat. Probably won't happen though.
Old 08-04-2008 | 04:02 PM
  #7  
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Originally Posted by JakeRobb
Interesting topic.

I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.

This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
I wish to advise you that I am awarding you the 1st annual 1fastdog foundation award for astute recognitional excellence in relevance/irrelevalence recognitial ability as per definitonal forum header descriptions in a public/private internet forum.

This is not a major financial accomplishment, nor is there a trophy award in keeping with the win... but it will be exchangible for an adult beverage of your choice in Indy at the unveil festivities. Unfortunately, you need not win to be present, but you must be present to collect the award.

I hope you can accept the congratulations and apology from the foundation in the same moment.

It is as much and as little as we can do...

Last edited by 1fastdog; 08-04-2008 at 04:13 PM.
Old 08-04-2008 | 04:35 PM
  #8  
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Originally Posted by HOTCIVIC
GM could just follow the same route that Dodge is going to with the Challenger Drag Pack


Mopar built the first two Challenger Drag Race Package Cars for development and testing for its new Challenger Package Car program. Based on the Challenger SRT8®, the prototypes were finished in Stock Eliminator configuration. They ran successfully in June 2008 as proof-of-concept and for NHRA certification. Mopar dropped approximately 1,000 lbs. off the production Challenger SRT8 by eliminating major production components and systems. To accentuate the weight savings, they also feature added composite, polycarbonate and lightweight components designed for drag racing that will be part of the new Package Car program.

The engine was repositioned to improve driveline angle and weight distribution. The 116-inch wheelbase was shortened by ½ inch. They also feature a front cradle with bolt-in crossmember and solid engine mounts.

Mopar will build a minimum of 100 Challenger Drag Race Package Cars to meet NHRA requirements. Based on the production Dodge Challenger SRT8, Mopar's modern factory-prepped Challenger Drag Race Package Car will begin as a special Body-in-White (BIW) from Chrysler's Brampton, Ontario, Canada, assembly plant. The body sealer, sound deadener and undercoat will be eliminated. To reduce vehicle weight, major production component and systems will also be eliminated including: windshield wiper assembly, complete HVAC system, all airbag components, rear seats, power steering system, exhaust system and underbody heat shields, cross-car and side impact door beams, rear bumper beam and rear deck lid spoiler.


Well, it would be neat. Probably won't happen though.
http://wot.motortrend.com/6266429/tu...cer/index.html

It isn't street legal, it is unclear how much it will cost, could be more, and a minimum of 100 cars sounds like they don't plan on selling much.

To me, it sounds like they are doing what fans want, but may lose money on this. Not based on a solid business plan if you ask me.
Old 08-04-2008 | 04:54 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by 1fastdog
I have attempted to generate some "rubber meets the road" discussions elsewhere on the forum regarding the viability of a next level Camaro.

What is the price point for the market?

I have yet to hear anyone state that I would pay a max of "this" for "this" spec Camaro. There are accusational threads, aspirational threads, but hardly any financial reality threads...

Abstract excercises are fun, amusing, but pointless if a business case isn't the end result.

There's much talk about what folks want, and very little about what they will truly pay for it...
I guess what you're talking about here is a Z/28. I'd pay more. How much more, really depends - and that's about as fair of an answer as I can give.

Certainly, once you start encroaching on Corvette's price point, you're starting to stretch the value equation. Camaro must remain attainable, even if paying for a Z/28 emblemed car comes at a premium. If done right, that premium will gladly be payed.
Old 08-04-2008 | 05:07 PM
  #10  
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From: Phoenix AZ
Originally Posted by codename BilDoe
Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.

What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.


1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8

1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.

2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages

3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats

4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers

5. Double adj. shocks

6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox

7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum

8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.

9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.

10. No sound deadening material

11. No rear seats

12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
Best business case Ive seen yet to permanently retire the camaro name! Great idea!!
Old 08-04-2008 | 05:26 PM
  #11  
codename BilDoe's Avatar
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Relevance is where GM is so clueless in the market. I have been a die-hard GM fan forever (67 chevelle, two 72 chevelles, 94 camaro, 01 WS6, 07 C6 Z51, 07 cobalt tsa! tsa!, 99 Z28 1LE), but the fact is Ford understands marketing and sales way better than GM.

You don't sell a 1LE to make a huge profit. You sell it for the mystique that carries the brand. Case in point? Mustang. Look at the sales figures and see how many are V8's vs. fleet sales and V6's for college chicks going to the beach. You think they outsell Camaro with Bullitt mustangs and Mach 1's?

So, can a stripper be successful? Who would ever be dumb enough to buy one of those? Shelby GT - all the suspension components of the GT500 but it only weighs 3400lb.

More examples of advertising that people just don't understand? C6R! Why do you think they've continued racing in ALMS GT1 with no other competition? How many Z06's and C6R's do you think they've sold from racing against themselves? It's the mystique and the legend they've created which allows them to boost the sales numbers of standard C6's.

You don't build a rare and race-specific (i.e. lacking creature comforts for the masses) option in order to sell a ton. You do it to build on legendary racing history which, in turn, boosts sales of regular optioned cars. Race on Sunday sell on Monday was and is a successful adage for a reason - if one can buy a facsimile of a race car that looks like the real deal, people will.

As for pricing, Solstice has an autox package $1095 which includes adjustable coilovers, beefier sways, quicker steering ratio, etc and can't be ordered with leather or any other options. C6 Z51 package is $1695 and includes different shocks, sways, ps cooler, tranny cooler, different geared transmission (M12), etc.

So, 1LE could easily be built as an $1100 option.

Solstice has autox package, corvette has Z51. 1LE is only natural.
Old 08-04-2008 | 05:28 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by codename BilDoe
Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.

What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.


1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8

1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
Non-starter. GM isn't going to delete safety equptment. The first person who becomes a parapalegic or widow would successfuly sue GM for having safety equptment available that would prevent it, but then removed it. This type of suit has been done before successfully, so I'm not making this up.

2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
Non-starter. Today it costs more to create a delete package than it does to simply include it on every vehicle. It can be done when you're making 200-300,000 vehicles per year. At 100,000 and less, it's not going to fly.

3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
Forget the dropping power windows. We've had a slugfest with GM over this before. See above. Regarding doorlocks, and mirrors, you're saving probably 8 pounds max. Power seat delete has potential, though.

4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
This goes beyond being a non-starter. Some of the car's engine management is done through the stereo. This isn't just GM, but it's also other car companies. Today's car stereos are wired into the rest of the car's computer network. Lose the stereo in some cars, and the car won't run.

5. Double adj. shocks
I'd say that's doable.

6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
Massive sway bars alone don't cut it. Also, massive sway bars weigh more.

7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
To what benefit? Again, making something different costs more than making things the same.

8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
I hear this alot, but when it comes to asking "OK... what body parts can we lose weight out of, how can we take the weight out, and is this going to affect durability", the words tend to drift in the air like stale cigarette smoke or the proposer tends to begin to babble without specifics. Truth is, unless you're ready to see parts break (like your drivetrain, rear suspension components, and differential) or want to see your braking distance increase, you aren't going to lose weight through some miracle "body part" replacements.

9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
Those "Bling blings" as you call it, combines with compatable meats actually do enhance handling. The ZR1 has 20s,and so do alot of other high performance cars that have stellar handling rep. Less sidewall means less sidewall flex. Less sidewall flex means tighter feeling and better feedback.

10. No sound deadening material
Doable, but it's going to cost dearly in sales. A lack of any sound deadening material will make the interior sound like being inside a muffled tin can. Despite the talk, there is no one who is going to pay 30 large plus for a car that noisy unless they plan to live on a racetrack.... and even then, they would buy a regular Camaro and simply take the interior out.

11. No rear seats
Doable.

12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
Parts like that have to go through GM's validation process. That costs money. Is it worth it to GM to do something like that unless it's going to be used across the board? Does the cost difference between what GM is using and what you propose going to be of noteworthy difference to the Camaro buying public or to the few dozen who are going to void their warranty by turning their Camaro into a pure race car?

This keeps getting brought up over and over again, so I guess I'll do the same:

1. There isn't going to be any substantial weight taken out of the Camaro. You can tweak around the edges, you might manage to get 100 pounds out of it and still have it as a production model. But go higher than that, and you're talking about changes that will send the price up significantly, and/or will have to go through GM's validation process. If it's not as tough as the part it's replacing, it's not going to get made. Period.

2. Some of you out there may have lots of green sitting in your bank, and think that a BMW M3 is not an expensive car. But, you seem to forget that we aren't talking about a BMW M3. We're talking about a Camaro. When you start pricing Camaros near where a person can get a BMW, guess what? That person is going to sneer at the Camaro, and go get that BMW. In the meantime, you're turning away Camaro's traditional customer base. If you want to ensure not only will this Camaro fail, but also that the next Camaro never sees the light of day, simply add expensive materials and keep saying YOU are willing to pay more for it..... there's probably 10 sales Camaro would lose for each 1 of you.

3. Finally, any Z28 package that is outside the one proposed MUST have a better price and be a better value than the one that's currently under the microscope. I am astounded that so many people are actually proposing a car that would be more expensive, more exclusive, yet offer no real advantage to the supercharged version that's proposed, and in more instances than not probably would get you thrown out of a GM office for being ill thought out.

A better Z28 would need to be lower priced.
A better Z28 would still have to use the Camaro SS as a basis.
A better Z28 would have to sell more than the 5000 that this one is expected to sell.

A better Z28 can't have a $15,000 hand made LS9 designed for a 3100 pound car which won't handle the abuse that it would have if it lived on the Drag Strip hurling a 38-3900 pound car abusively and repeatedly down a track (there's a reason why GM didn't choose the LS9 as the basis for the LSx supercharged engine.... yes, the reason is durability).

We demanded this Camaro we got.

We demanded independent rear suspension & ignored the fact that it's much heavier than a live axle. We demanded 500 plus horsepower ignoring the fact that the body, drivetrain and suspension (especially IRS) designed to handle 500 plus horsepower adds alot of weight. We demanded our Camaro be a certain size, and acted dismissively at the mere thought of a Cobalt sized Camaro. We demanded a big honking V8 at all costs. We demanded world class braking forgetting that large discs and calipers can add up to 10 pounds or more per corner, and a system to back that up is also heavier.

Congratulations.

That's the car we're stuck with.

Meanwhile, the Mustang still has a live axle and even the 500+ horse GT500 Mustangs are governed at a chassis and component saving 155 mph and still weighs about 3500 pounds...... but we'd storm GM if the Camaro was governed and had a live axle, right?

So, back to a Z28.....

.... one that's realistic, one that's better than the one proposed, and one that's actually going to sell.

Last edited by guionM; 08-04-2008 at 05:35 PM.
Old 08-04-2008 | 06:26 PM
  #13  
FactoryZ's Avatar
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Originally Posted by guionM
So, back to a Z28.....

.... one that's realistic, one that's better than the one proposed, and one that's actually going to sell.

Guion, the voice of reason..........(sometimes )
Old 08-04-2008 | 08:42 PM
  #14  
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a gt500 weighs a couple hundred more then 3500..
Old 08-04-2008 | 09:01 PM
  #15  
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Ford makes a club racer version of their Mustang. It is essentially a stripped down Mustang like the car described. They charge 75k for it and sell very few per year.



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