It's time. The official 1LE thread.
#1
It's time. The official 1LE thread.
Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
5. Double adj. shocks
6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
10. No sound deadening material
11. No rear seats
12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
13. ps cooler
14. tranny cooler
15. quicker steering ratio
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
5. Double adj. shocks
6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
10. No sound deadening material
11. No rear seats
12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
13. ps cooler
14. tranny cooler
15. quicker steering ratio
Last edited by codename BilDoe; 08-04-2008 at 05:27 PM.
#2
Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
5. Double adj. shocks
6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
10. No sound deadening material
11. No rear seats
12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
5. Double adj. shocks
6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
10. No sound deadening material
11. No rear seats
12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
#3
I have attempted to generate some "rubber meets the road" discussions elsewhere on the forum regarding the viability of a next level Camaro.
What is the price point for the market?
I have yet to hear anyone state that I would pay a max of "this" for "this" spec Camaro. There are accusational threads, aspirational threads, but hardly any financial reality threads...
Abstract excercises are fun, amusing, but pointless if a business case isn't the end result.
There's much talk about what folks want, and very little about what they will truly pay for it...
What is the price point for the market?
I have yet to hear anyone state that I would pay a max of "this" for "this" spec Camaro. There are accusational threads, aspirational threads, but hardly any financial reality threads...
Abstract excercises are fun, amusing, but pointless if a business case isn't the end result.
There's much talk about what folks want, and very little about what they will truly pay for it...
Last edited by 1fastdog; 08-04-2008 at 03:44 PM.
#4
Interesting topic.
I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.
This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.
This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
#5
#6
Interesting topic.
I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.
This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.
This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
Mopar built the first two Challenger Drag Race Package Cars for development and testing for its new Challenger Package Car program. Based on the Challenger SRT8®, the prototypes were finished in Stock Eliminator configuration. They ran successfully in June 2008 as proof-of-concept and for NHRA certification. Mopar dropped approximately 1,000 lbs. off the production Challenger SRT8 by eliminating major production components and systems. To accentuate the weight savings, they also feature added composite, polycarbonate and lightweight components designed for drag racing that will be part of the new Package Car program.
The engine was repositioned to improve driveline angle and weight distribution. The 116-inch wheelbase was shortened by ½ inch. They also feature a front cradle with bolt-in crossmember and solid engine mounts.
Mopar will build a minimum of 100 Challenger Drag Race Package Cars to meet NHRA requirements. Based on the production Dodge Challenger SRT8, Mopar's modern factory-prepped Challenger Drag Race Package Car will begin as a special Body-in-White (BIW) from Chrysler's Brampton, Ontario, Canada, assembly plant. The body sealer, sound deadener and undercoat will be eliminated. To reduce vehicle weight, major production component and systems will also be eliminated including: windshield wiper assembly, complete HVAC system, all airbag components, rear seats, power steering system, exhaust system and underbody heat shields, cross-car and side impact door beams, rear bumper beam and rear deck lid spoiler.
The engine was repositioned to improve driveline angle and weight distribution. The 116-inch wheelbase was shortened by ½ inch. They also feature a front cradle with bolt-in crossmember and solid engine mounts.
Mopar will build a minimum of 100 Challenger Drag Race Package Cars to meet NHRA requirements. Based on the production Dodge Challenger SRT8, Mopar's modern factory-prepped Challenger Drag Race Package Car will begin as a special Body-in-White (BIW) from Chrysler's Brampton, Ontario, Canada, assembly plant. The body sealer, sound deadener and undercoat will be eliminated. To reduce vehicle weight, major production component and systems will also be eliminated including: windshield wiper assembly, complete HVAC system, all airbag components, rear seats, power steering system, exhaust system and underbody heat shields, cross-car and side impact door beams, rear bumper beam and rear deck lid spoiler.
#7
Interesting topic.
I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.
This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
I really doubt that you're going to see a "stripper" Camaro like the one you're describing from GM. The lightweight body panels, forged wheels, adjustable shocks, brake lines, and the swaybars are possibilities, but I wouldn't count on most of that from the factory either.
This doesn't really fall under news, sightings, pictures, or multimedia, so a moderator should probably move it.
This is not a major financial accomplishment, nor is there a trophy award in keeping with the win... but it will be exchangible for an adult beverage of your choice in Indy at the unveil festivities. Unfortunately, you need not win to be present, but you must be present to collect the award.
I hope you can accept the congratulations and apology from the foundation in the same moment.
It is as much and as little as we can do...
Last edited by 1fastdog; 08-04-2008 at 04:13 PM.
#8
GM could just follow the same route that Dodge is going to with the Challenger Drag Pack
Mopar built the first two Challenger Drag Race Package Cars for development and testing for its new Challenger Package Car program. Based on the Challenger SRT8®, the prototypes were finished in Stock Eliminator configuration. They ran successfully in June 2008 as proof-of-concept and for NHRA certification. Mopar dropped approximately 1,000 lbs. off the production Challenger SRT8 by eliminating major production components and systems. To accentuate the weight savings, they also feature added composite, polycarbonate and lightweight components designed for drag racing that will be part of the new Package Car program.
The engine was repositioned to improve driveline angle and weight distribution. The 116-inch wheelbase was shortened by ½ inch. They also feature a front cradle with bolt-in crossmember and solid engine mounts.
Mopar will build a minimum of 100 Challenger Drag Race Package Cars to meet NHRA requirements. Based on the production Dodge Challenger SRT8, Mopar's modern factory-prepped Challenger Drag Race Package Car will begin as a special Body-in-White (BIW) from Chrysler's Brampton, Ontario, Canada, assembly plant. The body sealer, sound deadener and undercoat will be eliminated. To reduce vehicle weight, major production component and systems will also be eliminated including: windshield wiper assembly, complete HVAC system, all airbag components, rear seats, power steering system, exhaust system and underbody heat shields, cross-car and side impact door beams, rear bumper beam and rear deck lid spoiler.
Well, it would be neat. Probably won't happen though.
Mopar built the first two Challenger Drag Race Package Cars for development and testing for its new Challenger Package Car program. Based on the Challenger SRT8®, the prototypes were finished in Stock Eliminator configuration. They ran successfully in June 2008 as proof-of-concept and for NHRA certification. Mopar dropped approximately 1,000 lbs. off the production Challenger SRT8 by eliminating major production components and systems. To accentuate the weight savings, they also feature added composite, polycarbonate and lightweight components designed for drag racing that will be part of the new Package Car program.
The engine was repositioned to improve driveline angle and weight distribution. The 116-inch wheelbase was shortened by ½ inch. They also feature a front cradle with bolt-in crossmember and solid engine mounts.
Mopar will build a minimum of 100 Challenger Drag Race Package Cars to meet NHRA requirements. Based on the production Dodge Challenger SRT8, Mopar's modern factory-prepped Challenger Drag Race Package Car will begin as a special Body-in-White (BIW) from Chrysler's Brampton, Ontario, Canada, assembly plant. The body sealer, sound deadener and undercoat will be eliminated. To reduce vehicle weight, major production component and systems will also be eliminated including: windshield wiper assembly, complete HVAC system, all airbag components, rear seats, power steering system, exhaust system and underbody heat shields, cross-car and side impact door beams, rear bumper beam and rear deck lid spoiler.
Well, it would be neat. Probably won't happen though.
It isn't street legal, it is unclear how much it will cost, could be more, and a minimum of 100 cars sounds like they don't plan on selling much.
To me, it sounds like they are doing what fans want, but may lose money on this. Not based on a solid business plan if you ask me.
#9
I have attempted to generate some "rubber meets the road" discussions elsewhere on the forum regarding the viability of a next level Camaro.
What is the price point for the market?
I have yet to hear anyone state that I would pay a max of "this" for "this" spec Camaro. There are accusational threads, aspirational threads, but hardly any financial reality threads...
Abstract excercises are fun, amusing, but pointless if a business case isn't the end result.
There's much talk about what folks want, and very little about what they will truly pay for it...
What is the price point for the market?
I have yet to hear anyone state that I would pay a max of "this" for "this" spec Camaro. There are accusational threads, aspirational threads, but hardly any financial reality threads...
Abstract excercises are fun, amusing, but pointless if a business case isn't the end result.
There's much talk about what folks want, and very little about what they will truly pay for it...
Certainly, once you start encroaching on Corvette's price point, you're starting to stretch the value equation. Camaro must remain attainable, even if paying for a Z/28 emblemed car comes at a premium. If done right, that premium will gladly be payed.
#10
Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
5. Double adj. shocks
6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
10. No sound deadening material
11. No rear seats
12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
5. Double adj. shocks
6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
10. No sound deadening material
11. No rear seats
12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
#11
Relevance is where GM is so clueless in the market. I have been a die-hard GM fan forever (67 chevelle, two 72 chevelles, 94 camaro, 01 WS6, 07 C6 Z51, 07 cobalt tsa! tsa!, 99 Z28 1LE), but the fact is Ford understands marketing and sales way better than GM.
You don't sell a 1LE to make a huge profit. You sell it for the mystique that carries the brand. Case in point? Mustang. Look at the sales figures and see how many are V8's vs. fleet sales and V6's for college chicks going to the beach. You think they outsell Camaro with Bullitt mustangs and Mach 1's?
So, can a stripper be successful? Who would ever be dumb enough to buy one of those? Shelby GT - all the suspension components of the GT500 but it only weighs 3400lb.
More examples of advertising that people just don't understand? C6R! Why do you think they've continued racing in ALMS GT1 with no other competition? How many Z06's and C6R's do you think they've sold from racing against themselves? It's the mystique and the legend they've created which allows them to boost the sales numbers of standard C6's.
You don't build a rare and race-specific (i.e. lacking creature comforts for the masses) option in order to sell a ton. You do it to build on legendary racing history which, in turn, boosts sales of regular optioned cars. Race on Sunday sell on Monday was and is a successful adage for a reason - if one can buy a facsimile of a race car that looks like the real deal, people will.
As for pricing, Solstice has an autox package $1095 which includes adjustable coilovers, beefier sways, quicker steering ratio, etc and can't be ordered with leather or any other options. C6 Z51 package is $1695 and includes different shocks, sways, ps cooler, tranny cooler, different geared transmission (M12), etc.
So, 1LE could easily be built as an $1100 option.
Solstice has autox package, corvette has Z51. 1LE is only natural.
You don't sell a 1LE to make a huge profit. You sell it for the mystique that carries the brand. Case in point? Mustang. Look at the sales figures and see how many are V8's vs. fleet sales and V6's for college chicks going to the beach. You think they outsell Camaro with Bullitt mustangs and Mach 1's?
So, can a stripper be successful? Who would ever be dumb enough to buy one of those? Shelby GT - all the suspension components of the GT500 but it only weighs 3400lb.
More examples of advertising that people just don't understand? C6R! Why do you think they've continued racing in ALMS GT1 with no other competition? How many Z06's and C6R's do you think they've sold from racing against themselves? It's the mystique and the legend they've created which allows them to boost the sales numbers of standard C6's.
You don't build a rare and race-specific (i.e. lacking creature comforts for the masses) option in order to sell a ton. You do it to build on legendary racing history which, in turn, boosts sales of regular optioned cars. Race on Sunday sell on Monday was and is a successful adage for a reason - if one can buy a facsimile of a race car that looks like the real deal, people will.
As for pricing, Solstice has an autox package $1095 which includes adjustable coilovers, beefier sways, quicker steering ratio, etc and can't be ordered with leather or any other options. C6 Z51 package is $1695 and includes different shocks, sways, ps cooler, tranny cooler, different geared transmission (M12), etc.
So, 1LE could easily be built as an $1100 option.
Solstice has autox package, corvette has Z51. 1LE is only natural.
#12
Fact - they're both piggy, but the v8 is significantly heavier than the v6. It looks like the v6 would be the best ESP option with its gearing and the availability of the 3.45's from the v8. Road racing you would rather the v8, obviously; but, the weight penalty on an already heavy car is a killer.
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
What would you want from a 1LE? This is what I think it should be.
1LE Option - available for V6 OR V8
1. Airbag delete - 6 airbags standard? too much weight. Leave 4 out.
2. A/C delete - a/c is a $960 option on the solstice. Do the same on camaro and make it standard on packages
3. Manual everything - door locks, windows, mirrors, seats
4. Radio delete - c6's use standard wiring bundles regardless of options. Leave the wiring open. It saves GM money to put in a plastic plate instead of a radio and speakers
5. Double adj. shocks
6. Massive sways - Big rear for rr. Base can be put on later for autox
7. No fancy electronics - keep lights, gauges, etc. to a minimum
8. Some lightweight body parts - piggy needs to drop as much weight as possible.
9. Lightened wheels - save the bling bling 20's and 21's for people that don't know better.
10. No sound deadening material
11. No rear seats
12. SS brake lines my c6 z51 even came with rubber and a mush pedal. save us the time by putting some good lines on.
This keeps getting brought up over and over again, so I guess I'll do the same:
1. There isn't going to be any substantial weight taken out of the Camaro. You can tweak around the edges, you might manage to get 100 pounds out of it and still have it as a production model. But go higher than that, and you're talking about changes that will send the price up significantly, and/or will have to go through GM's validation process. If it's not as tough as the part it's replacing, it's not going to get made. Period.
2. Some of you out there may have lots of green sitting in your bank, and think that a BMW M3 is not an expensive car. But, you seem to forget that we aren't talking about a BMW M3. We're talking about a Camaro. When you start pricing Camaros near where a person can get a BMW, guess what? That person is going to sneer at the Camaro, and go get that BMW. In the meantime, you're turning away Camaro's traditional customer base. If you want to ensure not only will this Camaro fail, but also that the next Camaro never sees the light of day, simply add expensive materials and keep saying YOU are willing to pay more for it..... there's probably 10 sales Camaro would lose for each 1 of you.
3. Finally, any Z28 package that is outside the one proposed MUST have a better price and be a better value than the one that's currently under the microscope. I am astounded that so many people are actually proposing a car that would be more expensive, more exclusive, yet offer no real advantage to the supercharged version that's proposed, and in more instances than not probably would get you thrown out of a GM office for being ill thought out.
A better Z28 would need to be lower priced.
A better Z28 would still have to use the Camaro SS as a basis.
A better Z28 would have to sell more than the 5000 that this one is expected to sell.
A better Z28 can't have a $15,000 hand made LS9 designed for a 3100 pound car which won't handle the abuse that it would have if it lived on the Drag Strip hurling a 38-3900 pound car abusively and repeatedly down a track (there's a reason why GM didn't choose the LS9 as the basis for the LSx supercharged engine.... yes, the reason is durability).
We demanded this Camaro we got.
We demanded independent rear suspension & ignored the fact that it's much heavier than a live axle. We demanded 500 plus horsepower ignoring the fact that the body, drivetrain and suspension (especially IRS) designed to handle 500 plus horsepower adds alot of weight. We demanded our Camaro be a certain size, and acted dismissively at the mere thought of a Cobalt sized Camaro. We demanded a big honking V8 at all costs. We demanded world class braking forgetting that large discs and calipers can add up to 10 pounds or more per corner, and a system to back that up is also heavier.
Congratulations.
That's the car we're stuck with.
Meanwhile, the Mustang still has a live axle and even the 500+ horse GT500 Mustangs are governed at a chassis and component saving 155 mph and still weighs about 3500 pounds...... but we'd storm GM if the Camaro was governed and had a live axle, right?
So, back to a Z28.....
.... one that's realistic, one that's better than the one proposed, and one that's actually going to sell.
Last edited by guionM; 08-04-2008 at 05:35 PM.
#13