I think we can file this under being extremely lucky. It's a "wow, I'm glad that worked out for the best, let's NEVER do that again" type of situation. As much as I liked seeing the pics, I have to side with Scott and GM. But mainly because I have a pretty good stake in GM. My dad's worked there for my entire life and will retire shortly. Anything good for GM is good for my family.

Sorry Scott, I can't be as supportive of Toyota. If someone leaked a pic of their hot new car and it caused Toyota to go bankrupt, I wouldn't even bat an eye. I don't like Toyota, feel they are at best a misleading company, and could care less about them (no apologies, my own reasons).

 

Honestly, by the time January 9th came, I wasn't nearly as excited as I should have been had the pictures not been leaked. GM went through a great deal of trouble (and probably money!) to set up that beautiful reveal to the press and enthusiasts in Detroit, with the parade of 1st Gens and the guest speakers and all that...and when the car finally rumbled on stage, yeah it was great, but it also felt like Christmas morning when you were a kid and you had snooped and found that great toy you've been lusting for hidden in the basement a few weeks before...yeah you didn't see all of it, but you generally knew what you were going to get. That dulls the reaction.

 

That's what I've been TRYING to say, but I guess I haven't been very successful. But the fact of the matter is, we saw undisguised pictures or renderings of the ZR-1, the F4, the '98MY revision, the C6, the Z06, the 35th anniversary car, and the concept....all before GM was ready. This is just a fact of life now for cars w/ this kind of following.

GM themselves showed the video w/ those same concept pictures, and the clays, and the building of the concpet the night before the show, so I guess they weren't above letting out a little tease. Maybe they felt like they had nothing to lose, I don't know.

My point is...leaks=bad, but the fact is EVERY GM car gets leaked before GM wants it too. It's a shame, but it's true. It's nice that this PARTICULAR car didn't appear to suffer for it, but that doesn't make it ok. Not sure how much clearer I can be.

 

I cant believe Im saying this. What if the early 69ish pics which wasnt finished either btw were leaked and everyone hated it?

 

Who gives a crap who was excited when it was unveiled or 2 weeks before.
Are you still going to be excited in ~3 years when it comes out?
If you lost your excitement between the time you saw the leaked photos and the time you saw it unveiled there's no real chance your going to be excited in 3 years about it, so who really cares in the long run.

 

Then everyone would have been relieved when the real car appeared. Again, w/out seeing the finished product, you never really know if its the real deal or not, regardless of where the pictures came from.

 

I’m not denying the legalities involved here. I fully understand these are GM’s pictures and they have a right to protect their property. That wasn’t even what I was questioning; I was questioning the other justifications some posters had given for not showing the pictures.

The word “ethics” was brought up a number of times. What if these were totally legal spy pics taken by someone over a fence on public property? Would the same “ethical” duty to not post them apply? If so, what about all the spy pictures posted in the car mags, are they all in the wrong too?

As to the concern voiced that people might see the leaked shots and decide right then and there to swear off ever buying one … I think that would be a rare circumstance. First, only a small percentage of the North American population will actually see the concept in the flesh, everyone else will just see pictures. So to say that you must see it in person to like it, well, you’ve automatically narrowed down your audience considerably. Second, if a person is able to make their mind up based solely on pictures and disliked the leak, then they should likewise be capable of appreciating it again if subsequent pictures of the actual concept were much better. For the record I liked the “real” pictures better than the leaked ones (it’d be hard not to), but seeing the actual car didn’t change my opinion any further. I’ve grown to accept the design over time after my initial disappointment at it being retro, although I don’t attribute that to seeing it in person. It’s probably more of a familiarity thing because of seeing the pictures almost every day.

 

Scott, you know you are one of my favorite people in the world...but there is something missing here.

This is not a case of GM accidently "dropping it's wallet" once...but repeatedly. To me, this is largley an internal control/ethics issue at GM...not the internet. Just look at the last three leaks. The Z06 pictures were apparently leaked by a GM employee (from what went around the net). The Tahoe and Escalade were leaked when someone was allowed to have a camera phone at press picture shoot. And lastly, the Camaro pictures were leaked by someone GM had enthrusted with them. These are not cases of websites breaking embargoes, or stealing anything. These are cases where GM is giving their wallet to employees, whom are then driving around town throwing money out the window all over the place.

My point is....how many times can you "drop your wallet" and expect the guy who finds it to do the right thing? Once it is on the net, it is almost impossible to stop these damn pictures from spreading. By the time you delete and explain to someone why images cannot be posted...some other random person has seen the pictures and posted them all over the net. I was threatening to ban people if they posted them, and still had people posting them for weeks afterwards. Complicating the issue further, are situations like when Dodge intentionally leaked Challenger pictures. Now everyone has to kind of double take, and wait for confirmation from the company that these images are not supposed to be posted.

I personally hate when pictures like the Camaro ones get leaked because it is a pain in the *** deleting threads and getting people to stop reposting them. It is really a lot of work...and it makes members angry because they don't understand why we are removing something newsworthy. Websites like this, GMI and C&G are GM's biggest bases of enthusiasim on the internet. Prospective buyers check out our sites for info on GM product just as much as they do any print mag...probaly more. Yet, even though we remove the images and have not broken any embargoes, GM still wants to come down on websites and act like we do not exist because we may be a risk.

 

Could it be because I asked them not to (here) and they respected that? I am not sure if that is the answer you are looking for. That's what I can think of unless you are getting at something else.

Now you are talking about two different things. They weren't legal "spy pics". They were illegally stolen documents, and there is no two ways about it. They weren't on public property, and were never meant to be. Spy pics "in the wild" are different, and the auto makers know it as well as every professional automotive photographer. When an auto maker sends a car out, they have to sign off on allowing that to happen for testing. They know that someone will see it and take that risk because at that time, it is in their plan to do so. Again, that is why they camouflage the car...so if the spy pics make it to the public, the image isn't blown to the public and the competition doesn't capitalize on it. This isn't just GM, this is every auto maker out there.

The images in question were never meant to be seen by the public's eyes. They were never meant to leave the GM design center, in fact. There are probably hundreds more like it that didn't make the light of day, and possibly never will.

If you mean the images of the Camaro Concept, yes, they were all in the wrong. If they are part of a professional publication, there is no way that they can claim "they didn't know".

Once agian, it comes down to right and wrong. I had images of the car LONG before they got leaked. I didn't ask for them, but I received them and even I shouldn't have. But when I got them, I could have sold them to the highest bidders, paid off my car and then some, splashed them across the front page of my site and got famous for a day...but I knew that would be wrong to do. I know right from wrong, and I govern myself according to that.

If whoever took those images and leaked them had done the same, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Very true! However, these were initally leaked by people who did in fact know better in all 3 cases, and chose to do the wrong thing. Where did it get them? Who knows...but the the unemployment line is a start.

If an employee of your credit card company takes your credit card numbers and posts them...do you hope people do the right thing? I sure would!

I think this sort of thing actually happened a couple of times recently.

Yep...sucks. Sucks even more when some DO know they are not supposed to be out there, and ignore that fact.

I agree, it is a nightmare. I don't get much sleep when that happens. We can't expect everyone to know, but we can fairly expect people to comply when ask ask them to be cooperative. Wish it worked that easily.

Again, I agree on that one.

There I have to disagree, because no one "came down" on this site. I don't know about yours, but I was simply asked to remove them. I don't need to be asked twice.

 

As a enthusiast who likes Camaros I want to like the car. Especially one that pulled from a 69 makes me want to buy it. I dont know if you browsed import boards, but as people who know nothing nor want to know anything about Camaros or American cars, there were alot of negative comments. Some as ignorant as "How do they expect to sell that? Its got two different styled bumpers?" "there is a hole in the fender" and "Whats with the jack stands?" Alot of them do not want to like this car. Short of the best look/car you have may not sway a person like this to say "Man Im an import guy but the Camaro looks pretty damn good." I am in the "I dont like Ford but they do a pretty good job with the Mustang" crowd.

Hope fully the release of the concept made those same people change their minds that didnt like the leaked photos. That is to say as much of them as it would have had they not seen the unfinished design mule.

Legal spy pics would be a different story. If they had hoped a fence that would be trespassing. The ones that are caught in road testing or sitting out. Most are like the controlled leaked pic of the finished Challenger next to a tree or a car in camo or unrelated existing cars as Mules testing the drive train. Had GM left this design mule outside while someone else took the photo without climbing onto their property, I dont think it would be an ethical issue.

Thats my take anyway, I could be wrong...

 

This is what I'm getting at. Aside from the legalities of posting the concept pictures, a number of posters here said the pics shouldn't have been posted because it'll somehow cost GM a lot of money, or because it might make GM change their mind about producing the car. But if the pics were legitimate spy pics (and I know they weren't), would the same reasoning apply? Should websites pull legal pics based on the possibility GM might lose money or reconsider the car? If that line of reasoning holds up in one instance, it should hold up in the other (again, putting the legalities aside for the moment).

I just didn't understand the people trying to defend GM's position based on these arguments.

 

It is true that we can hope that, however it is not the case. For every three websites that remove the picture, there is one out there waiting to see what GM actually does. I actually dropped my wallet and had it stolen about three months ago. The person used all my cards for stuff like gas before I had a chance to cancel them. But I understand it was my own fault for not being more careful with my wallet.

We were never "came down" on so to say. The biggest confusion with the Camaro stuff was that It was posted....then everyone took it down. Then it showed back up...I think here. Then GM requested it get taken down again. It was a mess.

In general, GM communications is pretty unwilling to communicate though unless you happen to be from one of the major mags.

 

Thanks for the great Podcast....11 minutes of fun!

 

Please....I'm begging you.

Go get the family Bible...and write in it: "It was NOT a leak"........

If it were, I'd probably be winking as I type this.

I'm not winking.