Lutz: No more RWD
04-12-2007 | 07:52 AM
#137
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
Josh,
Puff-n-pass dude.........whatever it is you're smokin'....
I understand your premise, Ron Zarrella would be proud.
But you leave out one of the most important issues with a car company, "passion"..........
Passion that gives your customers a reason to come into showrooms, even when they buy something else.
Passion for your work force that otherwise would be another Toyota wanna-be and turn our vannila little boxes.....
Passion that gives you reasons to advertise that you're an "AMERICAN' car company that builds cars that stir one's soul......
Chevrolet has ALWAYS needed the Camaro...history has PROVEN that point.
Chevrolet will ALWAY need the Camaro.....it is their "Heart and Soul" afterall...I firmly believe this and have stated it to everyone from Bob Lutz, Rick Wagoner et. al.....to which they ALL agreed.
I'll leave it at that, as I really suppose you're just trying to start something...over a point that doesn't really have anything to do with the Camaro alone.
Now take your right hand.....
Put it in your right front pocket.......
Move it toward the middle of your body......
Feel anything there???
Because it sounds like you've been neutered........(Courtesy of Bob Knight....)
Puff-n-pass dude.........whatever it is you're smokin'....
I understand your premise, Ron Zarrella would be proud.
But you leave out one of the most important issues with a car company, "passion"..........
Passion that gives your customers a reason to come into showrooms, even when they buy something else.
Passion for your work force that otherwise would be another Toyota wanna-be and turn our vannila little boxes.....
Passion that gives you reasons to advertise that you're an "AMERICAN' car company that builds cars that stir one's soul......
Chevrolet has ALWAYS needed the Camaro...history has PROVEN that point.
Chevrolet will ALWAY need the Camaro.....it is their "Heart and Soul" afterall...I firmly believe this and have stated it to everyone from Bob Lutz, Rick Wagoner et. al.....to which they ALL agreed.
I'll leave it at that, as I really suppose you're just trying to start something...over a point that doesn't really have anything to do with the Camaro alone.
Now take your right hand.....
Put it in your right front pocket.......
Move it toward the middle of your body......
Feel anything there???
Because it sounds like you've been neutered........(Courtesy of Bob Knight....)
Why the Camaro is essential to GM's future in the midst or rising gas prices and there were 5 pages of responses on why we need the Camaro?
I said, GM's dollars are better spent on fuel efficient vehicles, not a vehicle that sold sell then 100k models the last few years that it was produced. Well, Lutz's comments all but confirm what I said.
The Camaro is not needed and will end up costing GM more money in the short term, and longterm. If Zeta does not go through...where does that leave the CAW and Oshawa? GM will have to put something there, you'd think. If not, the plant closes, costing GM millions more. If the Camaro is the only vehicle on the NA version of Zeta....well, lets not even get into how ridiculously stupid that would be.
The Camaro is a car that GM does not need, that never did need and that doesn't in the near future or in the future period. Put the money where it counts and focus on fuel efficient vehicles not V8 muscle cars that appeal to a minority.
I said, GM's dollars are better spent on fuel efficient vehicles, not a vehicle that sold sell then 100k models the last few years that it was produced. Well, Lutz's comments all but confirm what I said.
The Camaro is not needed and will end up costing GM more money in the short term, and longterm. If Zeta does not go through...where does that leave the CAW and Oshawa? GM will have to put something there, you'd think. If not, the plant closes, costing GM millions more. If the Camaro is the only vehicle on the NA version of Zeta....well, lets not even get into how ridiculously stupid that would be.
The Camaro is a car that GM does not need, that never did need and that doesn't in the near future or in the future period. Put the money where it counts and focus on fuel efficient vehicles not V8 muscle cars that appeal to a minority.
Last edited by Doug Harden; 04-12-2007 at 07:55 AM.
04-12-2007 | 07:59 AM
#138
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,496
From: Roseville, MI, USA
Josh,
Puff-n-pass dude.........whatever it is you're smokin'....
I understand your premise, Ron Zarrella would be proud.
But you leave out one of the most important issues with a car company, "passion"..........
Passion that gives your customers a reason to come into showrooms, even when they buy something else.
Passion for your work force that otherwise would be another Toyota wanna-be and turn our vannila little boxes.....
Passion that gives you reasons to advertise that you're an "AMERICAN' car company that builds cars that stir one's soul......
Chevrolet has ALWAYS needed the Camaro...history has PROVEN that point.
Chevrolet will ALWAY need the Camaro.....it is their "Heart and Soul" afterall...I firmly believe this and have stated it to everyone from Bob Lutz, Rick Wagoner et. al.....to which they ALL agreed.
I'll leave it at that, as I really suppose you're just trying to start something...over a point that doesn't really have anything to do with the Camaro alone.
Now take your right hand.....
Put it in your right front pocket.......
Move it toward the middle of your body......
Feel anything there???
Because it sounds like you've been neutered........(Courtesy of Bob Knight....)
Puff-n-pass dude.........whatever it is you're smokin'....
I understand your premise, Ron Zarrella would be proud.
But you leave out one of the most important issues with a car company, "passion"..........
Passion that gives your customers a reason to come into showrooms, even when they buy something else.
Passion for your work force that otherwise would be another Toyota wanna-be and turn our vannila little boxes.....
Passion that gives you reasons to advertise that you're an "AMERICAN' car company that builds cars that stir one's soul......
Chevrolet has ALWAYS needed the Camaro...history has PROVEN that point.
Chevrolet will ALWAY need the Camaro.....it is their "Heart and Soul" afterall...I firmly believe this and have stated it to everyone from Bob Lutz, Rick Wagoner et. al.....to which they ALL agreed.
I'll leave it at that, as I really suppose you're just trying to start something...over a point that doesn't really have anything to do with the Camaro alone.
Now take your right hand.....
Put it in your right front pocket.......
Move it toward the middle of your body......
Feel anything there???
Because it sounds like you've been neutered........(Courtesy of Bob Knight....)
By the time the third year comes around and we are in 2011 entering 2012....have you not taken the time out to think where gas prices are going to be then? AND, on GM's own admission the company has been saying for YEARS that the coupe market is basically DEAD.
Why does the Camaro make sense from a business standpoint? What purpose does it serve?
Absolutely NONE. I dont mean to walk into the lions backyard....but it can't be denied that the car has a short life span and is more then likely a bad investment.
04-12-2007 | 08:05 AM
#139
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 766
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Hmmm, the thread I was responding to disappeared.... I see the content made its way here though so here goes...................
It's my understanding that Oshawa will be a flex plant that will also continue to produce FWD cars (W-body) for the time being as well as Zeta. As Guy pointed out in other threads a Zeta based Impala (if the car is called that) is probably safe as well as probably a sedan for Buick. Other product farther out than 2010/11 are vulnerable, but the resources are already earmarked so those cars are godd to go.
I suppose that demand will ultimately decide the product mix being produced by Oshawa. Who said that a RWD car is automatically less fuel efficient or heavier than a comparable FWD car - that's pure nonsense. Just because a car has a RWD layout doesn't automatically mean an inefficient V8 under the hood. GM's LS series engines are pretty respectable in the fuel efficiency department given their power output and there's plenty of non V-series CTSs running around with 2.8 and 3.6 liter V6s.
Does GM need a Camaro? I suppose the answer to that is as wide and varied as there are people.... just because you or I may say yes or no, doesn't mean that that's the right answer. Maybe, just maybe, there is no right answer. I think this Camaro can draw people onto car lots and whether they buy it or something else, it still creates activity on the lot and that's good for the dealer. Good for GM.
It's not really about needs anyway. If it was, we'd all be driving the same econobox point A-to-point B cars with no variety at all. They would satisfy the basic need for transportation. Yes or no? Camaro (or any non-basic transportation econobox car for that matter) is about wants (and passion in some cases) and if you have the cash, the timing is right and want it, you'll buy it. End of story. People all over the world buy Cadillacs, BMWs Benzes, Jags and so on. What basic need do such marques satisfy? None - nobody needs a luxury, or high performance vehicle, nobody. They sell though. They satisfy wants. And once basic needs are met, wants drive the market.
It's my understanding that Oshawa will be a flex plant that will also continue to produce FWD cars (W-body) for the time being as well as Zeta. As Guy pointed out in other threads a Zeta based Impala (if the car is called that) is probably safe as well as probably a sedan for Buick. Other product farther out than 2010/11 are vulnerable, but the resources are already earmarked so those cars are godd to go.
I suppose that demand will ultimately decide the product mix being produced by Oshawa. Who said that a RWD car is automatically less fuel efficient or heavier than a comparable FWD car - that's pure nonsense. Just because a car has a RWD layout doesn't automatically mean an inefficient V8 under the hood. GM's LS series engines are pretty respectable in the fuel efficiency department given their power output and there's plenty of non V-series CTSs running around with 2.8 and 3.6 liter V6s.
Does GM need a Camaro? I suppose the answer to that is as wide and varied as there are people.... just because you or I may say yes or no, doesn't mean that that's the right answer. Maybe, just maybe, there is no right answer. I think this Camaro can draw people onto car lots and whether they buy it or something else, it still creates activity on the lot and that's good for the dealer. Good for GM.
It's not really about needs anyway. If it was, we'd all be driving the same econobox point A-to-point B cars with no variety at all. They would satisfy the basic need for transportation. Yes or no? Camaro (or any non-basic transportation econobox car for that matter) is about wants (and passion in some cases) and if you have the cash, the timing is right and want it, you'll buy it. End of story. People all over the world buy Cadillacs, BMWs Benzes, Jags and so on. What basic need do such marques satisfy? None - nobody needs a luxury, or high performance vehicle, nobody. They sell though. They satisfy wants. And once basic needs are met, wants drive the market.
Last edited by SharpShooter_SS; 04-12-2007 at 08:11 AM.
04-12-2007 | 09:19 AM
#140
2010 Camaro Moderator/Disciple
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,087
From: Chester, NY
We'll have to dig this thread up in 2011 and see how things shook out.
one comment about your theory of gas prices pushing the car out of market... why is Toyota jumping into the truck segment with both feet? Lexus was featuring their new luxo-boat SUV at NYIAS... guess they aren't that worried about gas prices.... 4th gen V8s got 26-28mpg highway.. I am confident GM can deliver similar numbers for the 5th gen, and maybe better.... DOD is in play, and it's a pretty good bet the 5th gen will have a 6 speed automatic. Neither of which the 4th gen had.
04-12-2007 | 09:24 AM
#141
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,049
From: Confederate States of America
Gas prices are sure to be over $3.00 a gallon, it's inevitable. Do you really think, that come 2009 when the car comes out it will not have an initial boom in sales (like all heritage cars) the second year, the sales might still stick around, but obviously will not be what they were first year.
By the time the third year comes around and we are in 2011 entering 2012....have you not taken the time out to think where gas prices are going to be then? AND, on GM's own admission the company has been saying for YEARS that the coupe market is basically DEAD.
Why does the Camaro make sense from a business standpoint? What purpose does it serve?
Absolutely NONE. I dont mean to walk into the lions backyard....but it can't be denied that the car has a short life span and is more then likely a bad investment.
By the time the third year comes around and we are in 2011 entering 2012....have you not taken the time out to think where gas prices are going to be then? AND, on GM's own admission the company has been saying for YEARS that the coupe market is basically DEAD.
Why does the Camaro make sense from a business standpoint? What purpose does it serve?
Absolutely NONE. I dont mean to walk into the lions backyard....but it can't be denied that the car has a short life span and is more then likely a bad investment.
04-12-2007 | 10:24 AM
#142
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 356
From: Providence, RI, USA
Imagine how much better the gas mileage would be at 3200 lb. instead of 3600+
GM powerplants are outstanding in terms of power production and efficiency. It'd be nice to see them powering lighter-weight vehicles!
GM powerplants are outstanding in terms of power production and efficiency. It'd be nice to see them powering lighter-weight vehicles!
04-12-2007 | 11:08 AM
#144
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 825
From: Stamford, VT
It sure would be nice to see my hard earned money go to an Iowa farmer instead of an Iranian oil company. I can only imagine how much that could help the US economy to keep billions of oil money in this country.
04-12-2007 | 11:47 AM
#145
2010 Camaro Moderator/Disciple
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,087
From: Chester, NY
That addtional cost pushes it way over where the 5th gen price range needs to be.
04-12-2007 | 12:09 PM
#146
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 284
From: Van Nuys, Ca.
Umm, we already know. Its called a Corvette. Insert $50k here. And your other two passengers will have to rde in a second 3200 pound vette next to you, since there is no back seat.
Last edited by Hoodshaker; 04-12-2007 at 12:11 PM.
04-12-2007 | 12:13 PM
#147
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 881
From: Jacksonville Florida
I'll tell you what purpose it serves. It satisfies the hundreds of thousands of us Americans that have a passion for classicly styled, muscular, affordable, sporty cars. Why do you think the Mustang sells so well? And why do they sell Corvettes as fast as they can make them? I think you need to do a little more research, and to double check what forum you are on.
04-12-2007 | 12:21 PM
#148
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 122
From: St. Louis, MO
You know I'm not opposed to cleaning up emissions to reduce CO2. Really. But if they're serious about it put scrubbers on A L L of those power plant smoke stacks. The cars cause a good bit, sure, but the contribution is small compared to the places that produce our electricity.
Something to think about... you can't even lock yourself in a garage with a car running and kill yourself. They don't expel enough pollutants to kill you. Apparently it gives you one hell of a headache, but you won't die. How bad can the cars be? The cats we put on them now are doing great, worry about other industries before we worry about the cars more.
Something to think about... you can't even lock yourself in a garage with a car running and kill yourself. They don't expel enough pollutants to kill you. Apparently it gives you one hell of a headache, but you won't die. How bad can the cars be? The cats we put on them now are doing great, worry about other industries before we worry about the cars more.
04-12-2007 | 12:22 PM
#149
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 976
From: SE MI
CAFE is at 27.5mpg now and the Bush administration wants to raise it to 34mpg by 2017, which raises it 4% annually. GM needs an econobox that gets 40mpg NOW to offset the V8s contribution to corporate average. Why cant GM produce an economy car that gets close to 40mpg on the highway? The DOD V8 engines only increase highway fuel economy about 10% at best, roughly 22mpg from 20.5mpg, which wont go too far in helping GM obtain the proposed 34mpg CAFE requirements. Its legislation like this that will hurt the lifespan the new Camaro. Instead of a 10 year life for the 5th gen, the new Camaro might only be produced for 5 years. This could be the V8s last hurrah. We could all be getting around in golf carts and Whizzer-like bikes in 15 years.
Oh, and on to the weight of the next Camaro. GM wants it to get a 5 star front and side crash rating, which is the highest. This can only be obtained by more mass, side impact beams, etc. And mass equals weight. Side curtain air bags will also be standard equipment. Couple that with GMs statement that no high cost low weight materials will be used in the new Camaro to keep the price down and the value up, and you WILL have a car that weighs substantially more than the 4th gen.
Oh, and on to the weight of the next Camaro. GM wants it to get a 5 star front and side crash rating, which is the highest. This can only be obtained by more mass, side impact beams, etc. And mass equals weight. Side curtain air bags will also be standard equipment. Couple that with GMs statement that no high cost low weight materials will be used in the new Camaro to keep the price down and the value up, and you WILL have a car that weighs substantially more than the 4th gen.