Lutz: No more RWD
04-12-2007 | 05:35 PM
#166
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 48
What if global warming is caused by the sun becoming hotter?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...s-warming.html
04-12-2007 | 05:45 PM
#167
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 211
You mean that big ball of fire in the sky that is 99.9% of the matter in our solar system could be causing the Earth to get hotter. That can't be. It has to be the infinitesimally small percentage of matter known has human beings causing it. Thats why the Sun rotates around us, because we're the center of the universe.
04-12-2007 | 06:31 PM
#169
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
How small and light do you go before no one (I'm talking the mass public) is interested anymore?
Lutz is talking about full size RWD sedans. The question is, how do you get an old GM B-body sized car to get mid-30's on the highway? If you have a solution for that, without some kind of hybrid system (--oops, added more weight!) you're a better engineer than anyone at the General.
You're making the mistake of assuming that you can replace a larger (and heavier) RWD car with something much smaller and people will buy them up at the same rate. I feel pretty confident in saying that is not the case.
Good for the RX-8. You do realize that it is almost identical in size to a C6 Corvette right? RX-8 = Camaro? I honestly don't think we're talking about the same type of car here. I'm not interested in a tiny cramped Camaro for the sake of performance. At that point I would just buy a Kappa product and be done with it. I want a Camaro with some presence. I want a Camaro built to handle 500 HP, not a 1.3L rotary. Two tons is not acceptable. But I would gladly take a Camaro that weighs 100 pounds or so more than a 4th Gen.
Lutz is talking about full size RWD sedans. The question is, how do you get an old GM B-body sized car to get mid-30's on the highway? If you have a solution for that, without some kind of hybrid system (--oops, added more weight!) you're a better engineer than anyone at the General.
You're making the mistake of assuming that you can replace a larger (and heavier) RWD car with something much smaller and people will buy them up at the same rate. I feel pretty confident in saying that is not the case.
Originally Posted by Dan Baldwin
Mazda RX-8 weighs 3000 lb.
Last edited by Z28Wilson; 04-12-2007 at 06:36 PM.
04-12-2007 | 07:58 PM
#172
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 157
From: Phoenix AZ
For the same reason that no one can in America. US auto worker wages.
I have a friend that works in the Ford plant in Louisville. We were talking about his UAW contract recently. I tell him that I pay almost $600 a month for my portion of health insurance at the bank that I work at. The bank pays another $1200 for me.
He is shocked as he pays ZERO out of pocket for his family coverage at Ford. Given his total comp package he probably cost Ford over $125K a year, or about twice what an average bank employee costs. That's a steep premium for a factory worker in the global market.
Auto plant work isn't easy and I don't think that those folks are overpaid, but they have really been insulated from paying a share of real world benefit costs. Add in the union dues and you start to see the additional overhead.
I have a friend that works in the Ford plant in Louisville. We were talking about his UAW contract recently. I tell him that I pay almost $600 a month for my portion of health insurance at the bank that I work at. The bank pays another $1200 for me.
He is shocked as he pays ZERO out of pocket for his family coverage at Ford. Given his total comp package he probably cost Ford over $125K a year, or about twice what an average bank employee costs. That's a steep premium for a factory worker in the global market.
Auto plant work isn't easy and I don't think that those folks are overpaid, but they have really been insulated from paying a share of real world benefit costs. Add in the union dues and you start to see the additional overhead.
04-12-2007 | 09:46 PM
#173
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 658
From: Madisonville, Louisiana
For the same reason that no one can in America. US auto worker wages.
I have a friend that works in the Ford plant in Louisville. We were talking about his UAW contract recently. I tell him that I pay almost $600 a month for my portion of health insurance at the bank that I work at. The bank pays another $1200 for me.
He is shocked as he pays ZERO out of pocket for his family coverage at Ford. Given his total comp package he probably cost Ford over $125K a year, or about twice what an average bank employee costs. That's a steep premium for a factory worker in the global market.
Auto plant work isn't easy and I don't think that those folks are overpaid, but they have really been insulated from paying a share of real world benefit costs. Add in the union dues and you start to see the additional overhead.
I have a friend that works in the Ford plant in Louisville. We were talking about his UAW contract recently. I tell him that I pay almost $600 a month for my portion of health insurance at the bank that I work at. The bank pays another $1200 for me.
He is shocked as he pays ZERO out of pocket for his family coverage at Ford. Given his total comp package he probably cost Ford over $125K a year, or about twice what an average bank employee costs. That's a steep premium for a factory worker in the global market.
Auto plant work isn't easy and I don't think that those folks are overpaid, but they have really been insulated from paying a share of real world benefit costs. Add in the union dues and you start to see the additional overhead.
On another note. I hope this means more cars get direct injection a little faster than expected. I am also looking foreward to HCCI.
04-12-2007 | 10:25 PM
#174
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 356
From: Providence, RI, USA
Lutz is talking about full size RWD sedans. The question is, how do you get an old GM B-body sized car to get mid-30's on the highway? If you have a solution for that, without some kind of hybrid system (--oops, added more weight!) you're a better engineer than anyone at the General.
Good for the RX-8. You do realize that it is almost identical in size to a C6 Corvette right? RX-8 = Camaro? I honestly don't think we're talking about the same type of car here.
I'm not interested in a tiny cramped Camaro for the sake of performance.
At that point I would just buy a Kappa product and be done with it. I want a Camaro with some presence. I want a Camaro built to handle 500 HP, not a 1.3L rotary. Two tons is not acceptable. But I would gladly take a Camaro that weighs 100 pounds or so more than a 4th Gen.
Lutz is basically saying GM is incapable of developing decent-mpg rwd cars, and incapable of building small cars here in the US.
I say that's b.s. They have the design talent, they have the engineering talent, they just don't have the leadership or the will. Reading his words, sounds like they aren't even gonna try, just roll over and die. And blame the EPA.
A real shame
04-13-2007 | 03:40 AM
#177
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,381
I have really enjoyed reading through this whole thread. Ive always doubted the degree of our involvement in global warming and after reading this thread and doing further research i see i was right. The fact that it is being used as a political tool bothers me as does much of modern day politics. Just cant trust politics anymore.
Turning the Sostice into a Camaro would have been VERY expensive. Nthe chassis have to be retro-engineered to be bigger and add stronger parts to handle the power reliably. Plus Kappa is an expensive and time consuming platform to produce. Probably would be talking a 28-30k base camaro let alone v8 models. who would buy that to save a couple mpg?
Your not taking one thing into consideration - incessant new saftey regulations forcing the cars to be stronger/safer. guess what that does. ADDS WEIGHT. Sure you can take out power windows and locks, AC, radio+speakers, and any other bells and whistles demanded by modern car buyers and make a car that no one wants and u still would likely not be quite there. so make the chassis out of carbon fiber as well as all the body panels and jack up the cost another large sump of cash and make it even less desirable.
GM would LOVE to make this car at 3200 pounds but its just not going to happen. They are doing what they can to keep the weight to a limit but there is only so much they can do within reason and costs
They *could* have developed the Solstice to be a platform for the Camaro, but chose to do it as quick as possible at the expense of future expansion. Not necessarily saying that decision was *wrong*, btw, but I think it would've been much better for the Camaro and Solstice to have been developed on the same platform.
Mallett LS2 Solstice weighs 3000 lb. GM 2+2 fixed-roof coupe Solstice/Camaro could've easily come in at 3200 or less.
Mallett LS2 Solstice weighs 3000 lb. GM 2+2 fixed-roof coupe Solstice/Camaro could've easily come in at 3200 or less.
GM would LOVE to make this car at 3200 pounds but its just not going to happen. They are doing what they can to keep the weight to a limit but there is only so much they can do within reason and costs
Last edited by 0toinsanein5.4sec; 04-13-2007 at 03:43 AM.
04-13-2007 | 07:46 AM
#178
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,165
From: Sterling Heights, MI
If the RX-8 is the perfect pony car in terms of size and weight, how many do they sell compared to Mustang?
What I'm saying is, there are plenty more important considerations to the general public than building a featherweight.
Last edited by Z28Wilson; 04-13-2007 at 08:56 AM.
04-13-2007 | 08:03 AM
#179
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 881
From: Jacksonville Florida
Camaro is definitely a marketing tool. Many people will go to look at the "cool" Camaro, and come home with a Malibu after getting caught up in the emotion. Car buying is emotional for 60% of the consumer population. Undoubtedly people that buy a Camaro will also decide to buy a Chevy crossover for the growing family, or a Chevy pickup to tow the boat, or maybe a Chevy compact for a kid in high school or college. If nothing else, it's one less dealership for them to have to visit for service.
Could GM build a Camaro on the Sky platform? Yep.
What would it cost? A lot to develop and sell.
Would it get 5 star crash ratings? Probably not.
Would it compete with other GM products? Maybe.
Could GM build a V8 Camaro the gets 34 MPG? No doubt in my mind if development dollars were unlimited and we were all OK with driving a Camaro made in Mexico or China(due to price targets).
Ford can't do it with the Mustang for the very same reasons. The Mustang traffic is helping to keep their other sales afloat. Everyone who wanted a "New" Mustang has one now. Ford is scrambling to keep the traffic up and they coming up with a few ridiculous ideas to do so (example #1: renaming 500 and Freestyle as Taurus and Taurus X to cause "excitement"
)
I'm hoping that GM is serious about product development and that VOLT and other ideas become reality in the future state. To me the Lutz statement sounded like frustration based on government moves that could "pinch" the near term strategy and planning. I'm OK with it if that is the case and I'm not going to panic.
I just hope that the true impact of the regulatory efforts don't squash the "long term" vision because then the General will have been moving counter to their competition strategically. GM and Ford were both guilty of building vehicles that they wanted to build (big bland boats or profitable platforms) versus the cars that the public wanted (stylish fuel efficient autos) a couple of times in history. The focus on feaverishly updating Explorer and Tahoe even as SUV sales started to sway are recent reminders. I bleed GM and but I hope that they are really planning for the future so that I don't have only Toyotas and Hondas to choose from in the future.
Could GM build a Camaro on the Sky platform? Yep.
What would it cost? A lot to develop and sell.
Would it get 5 star crash ratings? Probably not.
Would it compete with other GM products? Maybe.
Could GM build a V8 Camaro the gets 34 MPG? No doubt in my mind if development dollars were unlimited and we were all OK with driving a Camaro made in Mexico or China(due to price targets).
Ford can't do it with the Mustang for the very same reasons. The Mustang traffic is helping to keep their other sales afloat. Everyone who wanted a "New" Mustang has one now. Ford is scrambling to keep the traffic up and they coming up with a few ridiculous ideas to do so (example #1: renaming 500 and Freestyle as Taurus and Taurus X to cause "excitement"
) I'm hoping that GM is serious about product development and that VOLT and other ideas become reality in the future state. To me the Lutz statement sounded like frustration based on government moves that could "pinch" the near term strategy and planning. I'm OK with it if that is the case and I'm not going to panic.
I just hope that the true impact of the regulatory efforts don't squash the "long term" vision because then the General will have been moving counter to their competition strategically. GM and Ford were both guilty of building vehicles that they wanted to build (big bland boats or profitable platforms) versus the cars that the public wanted (stylish fuel efficient autos) a couple of times in history. The focus on feaverishly updating Explorer and Tahoe even as SUV sales started to sway are recent reminders. I bleed GM and but I hope that they are really planning for the future so that I don't have only Toyotas and Hondas to choose from in the future.
Last edited by christianjax; 04-13-2007 at 08:09 AM.
04-13-2007 | 08:40 AM
#180
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 388
You mean that big ball of fire in the sky that is 99.9% of the matter in our solar system could be causing the Earth to get hotter. That can't be. It has to be the infinitesimally small percentage of matter known has human beings causing it. Thats why the Sun rotates around us, because we're the center of the universe.