I say lock it - it's pretty clear that the discussion aspect died long ago.....

 

I say lock it too. It is a highly sensitive or controversial subject that incites arguments.

 

Why doesnt Lutz worry about improving mpg ratings on the much heavier trucks and suv's first? There have been some very short sighted decisons made recently. GM currently has a SUV (2007 Saturn Vue with plastic panels and space frame construction) that can match the 3200 pound weight of the base model Corvette. For 2008, the Vue will be made in Mexico. It will weigh 500-800 lbs more than the 07 model, since the plastic panels and space frame are gone. Honda built the Ridgeline with space frame construction with the help of an ex-GM engineer. Proof that the technology could be applied to trucks. The early-mid 90's space frame, plastic paneled GM minivans weigh 800+ pounds less than the present day GM minivans. What is the problem with a v8 car that gets 25+ mpg highway?

The Spring Hill plant could crank out 250,000 light weight rwd, fwd or awd vehicles with plastic panels with little modification to the plant. RWD doesnt have to be heavy to be safe. The RWD 1984-88 Pontiac Fiero's built on a space frame like saturn's with all plastic panels tip the scales at 2400-2800 pounds with a 60+ pound spare tire, IRS and a 5* crash rating. Corvette uses the same technology today. The space frame Sky and Solstice would have weighed 150 pounds less with plastic panels instead of hydroformed panels. Why is Spring Hill sitting empty with plans to retool for a Chevy SUV? Why is the space frame Delaware plant more than half empty?

 

Yeah, inquiring minds want to know.

 

Uh i think the problem is that the government is going to mandate across the board 30% increase. so they can't get out of it this time.
gee just a week or two ago things seemed pretty bright.

 

Don't know about all the frame stuff (would a Fiero garner a 5 star crash rating today?), but I do know that plastic panels are being ditched because they don't fit together well at all. Perception is the name of the game these days and panel gaps, no matter what the reason, are going to be looked down on.

 

gtjeff, I love ya to death because you're a Pontiac guy and the most dedicated Fiero guy I have ever seen on of off the intenet. However, that being said, the Fiero and its magical space frame is not the magic bullet you would like to believe it is. More on that later.

Regarding GM inproving the fuel economy of large trucks and SUV's- Take a look
That quote is from the press release for the '07 Tahoe and applies to all the GM fullsized SUV's as well as the GMT 900 pick ups. In addition, some models have the 6 speed auto now, and the rest will be getting them shortly. Also, dual mode hybrid versions of these vehicles will be on the road within the year. Notice they are starting their dual mode hybrid technology with their largest, most fuel thirsty vehicles first.

Regarding the Vue- The '08 Vue is just a midcycle enhancement and not a complete redesign. I am not aware of any changes to its current unibody construction. If you have more on this, please share. I think the weight increase has more to do with these changes for '08
-Larger 4 cyl engine
-Standard ABS on the 4-cyl
-Standard Stabiltrak across the board
-Standard active head restraints across the board
-Standard Traction control across the board
-Standard first and second row head curtain side air bags with rollover sensing system across the board
-Standard front seat side thorax air bags across the board
-Standard 6-speed autos on 6-cyl models

Just to name a few...
Add the above features which are a necessity in todays climate and then tell me how much the 2400-2800 two seat Fiero would weigh...

The plastic panels not only provide poor fit and finish due to their need for larger gaps to expand and contract, but the larger gaps also create more drag, reducing efficiency.

And regarding the Ridgline reference, well,we all know that isn't a truck, don't we?

 

The car would have to have airbags added to meet today's standards. The chassis structure is similar in design to the saturn, kappa and corvette/xlr space frames. I will ask an engineer I know about it. Note: Corvette is not crash tested, many of the expensive sports cars are not.

The car magazines are the ones who make the most complaints about panel gaps. The base model Corvette and XLR have plastic panels today. While admittedly they are better quality than Saturns, I have yet to have a customer complain to me about fit and finish. By the way, I just read a story where BMW is considering making a plastic paneled car.

 

This is a good development. Even better fuel economy could be achieved by reducing vehicle weight. Imagine the mpg increase if the Tahoe had an aluminum chassis.

Here are the differences in the Vue:
07 space frame, plastic panels: http://www.gmbuypower.com/pages/subm...AEC618ABCE7C53

08 unibody, steel panels, cousin to opel antara: http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/ev...saturn/vue.htm

The slightly smaller convertible sky and solstice start at 2800 pounds today with hydroformed steel panels. The plastic panels didnt hurt the fiero, it has a very low cd rating.

As far as the Ridgline, I have seen what you wrote probably in the same place you did.

 

Michael Crichton has a great talk on the global warming "consensus" here with excellent commentary on "consensus science" in general.

 

Political agendas involved or not..........I don't appreciate $3.00+ a gallon on my Solstice that I have to put 90+ octane in to achieve maximum horsepower.

My car is a 4 cylinder that still achieves nearly 30mpg average (from my own calculations).

How will people look at the Camaro in 2010 will be extremely negative.

I'll say once again....I don't hate the Camaro or what it stands for. Yes, I know that the Volt is far on the road to production then the general public knows, HOWEVER......the money is better spend elsewhere!

We still don't have our mini for U.S. soil and won't until at least 2009 or 2010. Seriously......that's once again too late.

I'll forget my rant, because I don't want to be stood up by somebody that knows "more" then me, or somebody that suggests I do more "research" as previously mentioned (or loosely along those lines) that I don't know how things work.

The Camaro design is great. The concept is gorgeous. The Convertible was executed excellently.....but...we have to look at the bigger picture as it relates to Camaro and...Zeta.

P.S.

I want Pontiac to succeed just as much as the next person here wants to see Camaro come to light, however....smaller really is bigger in this day and age.

 

An excellent read !

 

Michael Crichton is NOT a climate scientist. He is a writer of fiction.

The argument against "consensus science" is LUDICROUS.

Here's how it goes:
Have a preconceived belief.
If science supports it, hey you were RIGHT!
If science does NOT support it, throw out the "consensus science is not to be trusted!" / "all great scientists in history broke with convention/consensus!"

This method is a way to keep believing what you want, regardless of science or any rational thought process.

I'd be the first to agree that even if ALL scientists believe in a thing, that doesn't make it true.

HOWEVER, the anti-consensus argument would have you believe that if all scientists believe a thing, then that thing is actually LESS LIKELY to be true BECAUSE the scientists believe it!

Absurd.

 

I wouldn't write Michael Crichton off because he is an author. He is also extremely educated and brilliant. I think that often times scientists do agree on something that is wrong. Someday quantum theory may disprove pretty much everything we think we know about the laws of physics that are agreed upon now.

 

I believe Mr. Crichton states that until he actually began study of the issue, around 8 years ago, he was in firm agreement with said "consensus."