Everything. Unless the US continues to secure the flow of oil at market prices, the only vehicles we'll be able to afford to drive (assuming the rations are sufficient to fuel them) will be the sub-compact hybrids that are the specialty of Honda and Toyota right now. GM and Ford will be forced to abandon product development for vehciles that consumers want, to hasten delivery of vehicles that consumers need. Mass-marketed performance cars with broad-based appeal will be the first casualty of the next gas crisis, should one occur--upon which time you can kiss Camaro goodbye.

 

It must have been OnStar!

 

While I do not disagree with what you have written, I certainly hope we are fighting for something more noble than just a continued oil supply.
I would suggest that Freedom and Western Civilization are at the top of the list.

 

And what do you think fuels that freedom? Political, religious, academic, and cultural freedom are all moot without economic freedom. Right or wrong, our way of life is precariously tied to the price of oil.

 

If we were sufficiently commited to the principles of freedom, self-determination, and government by the consent of the governed, I believe that we could overcome and learn to survive the loss of oil.
The union existed before economic dependency on oil, and it could survive after it. Of course it would be a very difficult transition. Certainly our current lifestyles are tied to the availability of oil, but I sincerely hope the survival of our nation is not.
We are "one nation under God," not "one nation under oil."

 

Dacook-

Oh how I wish you were right... "One nation under God." Unfortunately the god (little "g") of our current age is wealth... and the acquisition of it (or its preservation) by the most expedient means. One would have thought that the oil embargo of 1973 would have taught us a lesson... or that Gulf War I would have reminded us to begin the transition to the alternative energy source you mentioned. But it hasn't. And so our economy is what it is...

This probably isn't the forum to grind this ax, nor the intent of Scott's original post... so I won't continue to respond. You may have the last word, if you wish. But I think we all (regardless of political persuasion) hope that the price of oil remains steady and reasonable so as not to derail the reintroduction of our beloved Camaro!!! If we pull out of Iraq before she is able to defend herself... that hope is a guaranteed impossibility.

I'll wrap up this post by once again saying "thanks" to Scott for your continued support for those of us in uniform and your tireless efforts to resurrect the Camaro!

 

This is NOT about oil.

this is about thanking people for defending our freedom.

This is about the fact that Radical Muslim Fundamentalists want us (that's you and me) dead.

 

 

Its a vicious cycle. We fight them to keep our freedom while they fight us to keep theirs. I just wish there's a better way to solve this than thru violence.

 

Man I hate when people say things like this. Evil is NEVER a vicious cycle - Hitler wasn't - terrorists aren't. These are people are opposed to freedom and will do whatever they can to stop it from spreading. They see freedom as a disease and the only difference between them is method. Hitler used death camps, terrorists are using bombs, civilian airliners and fear....different tool, same job. The only way to stop it regardless of method is to fight it - our military is volunteer, that means each and every one of them is willing to die for our freedom - for our right to:

-say whatever we want, whenever we want
-criticize them, even spitting on them (a la Vietnam)
-use the internet
-spend endless time obsessing over a car (a car used for pleasure costing more than some people around the world will make in their entire lives.)

Just think about your life with respect to the rest of the world for just a minute. Now imagine that there are people out there who want it to end no matter what you say or do. There is evil in the world - it can't be reasoned out, it must be fought and I am eternally grateful for the sacrifices made by our men and women in uniform who fight that evil for us. They are better people than I will ever be.

 

I am greatful of course to those brave soldiers who put their lives on the line. But I can never understand the reason why they're in Iraq in the first place. Im sure a lot of our troops dont either. To defend our freedom? Iraq is not a threat to the US. It is Osama Bin Ladens' terrorist group (who are US trained by the way) w/c attacked us, not Saddam. The US govt's premise for attacking Iraq was they have weapons of mass destruction, which have not been found, and I dont think they ever existed in the 1st place. Im sorry but this Iraq war is all about oil and money. This war has benefitted a lot of groups close the the govt. at the expense of our poor soldiers and civilian Iraquis' lives. I hope it doesnt, but I think this will turn out to be another Vietnam. But look at Vietnam now, they're flourishing under the current "non-democratic" regime.

 

There's an old adage that goes something like this:

"Those who do not study history are bound to repeat it......"

Do not for one moment think that Iraq is not a threat to the U.S. or anyone else! Do not!

Let us take a trip back in time to say -- oh, 1939. Most people said that we should ignore Hitler. We did for a while and 6 million Jewish people died.

Do not believe for one moment that Saddam did not have WMD. For those who say he did not, I ask the following question: What made 600,000 Kurds die in one week????????

WE (that's you and me) need to wake up and realize that unless we take drastic steps, Islamic Fundamentalists will stop at NOTHING to win their 'crusade'.

I hate war. It breaks my heart that we are losing men and women to such a terrible, terrible war..............but tell me what the alternative is. And do not tell me 'diplomacy' -- we've tried that until the cows came home and it does not work. You cannot reason with a madman.

 

wtf? its a car. your life and your fellow troops (including my friends over there too) lives are worth more then a sports car. im sure family members of the deceased are not going to be forgetting their loss just because the fifth gen comes out.

 

Unless you know anybody that's been over there, I wouldn't be too sure about the above statement.

Hussein had chemical & biological weapons, and if you don't think he didn't want to get his hands on a nuke you're fooling yourself. Believe it or not we've had troops and aircraft in the area CONTINUOUSLY to keep him in check since the end of the Gulf War in '91 BECAUSE WE CONSIDERED HIM A THREAT. Us going into Iraq again was only a matter of time and instead of waiting for him to pick the time and place, we took the initiative BEFORE he was able to obtain chem or bio weapons nastier than those he had, or even worse, a nuke.

We also liberated a people from a brutal animal. He used gas on his own people, committed/ordered mass murder, tortured, ordered the rape of wives and daughters of those he felt crossed him or might be a threat against him (while his pervert sons did it for entertainment). Actually, I don't think "animal" is a strong enough word for a sick, twisted sub-human like that.

Whacked out radical islamists now also see Iraq as a place to martyr themselves against the "infidels" (us). I would much rather have the military deal with them over there as opposed to unarmed civilians being attacked in Europe or the U.S.



Even though it's a mess over there, we can't just pull out. Unfortunately the Iraqi military isn't as strong/reliable as what we'd like. Leaving the Iraqi people on their own against the fundamentalists/terrorists would be inexcusable. Can you imagine the wholesale slaughter that would occur by "militias" against the civilians of opposing factions?

Also, if we pull out now, terrorists would win. The tactics of suicide bombings and IED's would be seen as a successful tactic. Not only that, but the martyrs would now actively come to us. We could then look forward to a rash of suicide bombings, IED's, and attacks on civilians in the U.S., Europe, or anywhere else a god other than allah is worshiped. Fun huh?



Just my opinion of course

 

There's something I want to add to this and I think it applies regardless of how one feels about our current presence in Iraq. History has taught us that the way war is fought continually changes - from ranks of men marching into enemy fire in the 1770's, to the trenches of WW1, to the technology boom of WW2, to the guerrilla tactics of Vietnam, to the smart bombs of Desert Storm - it always changes. September 11th, 2001 was another paradigm shift - a massive, single stroke that changed what "war" means. Stop and think about that for a minute - in a single day we'd gone from troops massing at borders and invading territory as the image of war to planes full of civilians being flown into buildings as the image of war. Air Force One landed UNDER FULL MILITARY ESCORT in Washington on that day - that's a new image of war for this country. We're no longer dealing with a cut and dry invasion, we're dealing with people who subscribe to a whole different paradigm and a whole different morality.

And just to put history in another light, how many people died at Antietam? Or Gettysburg? Or the invasion of Normandy? It makes the current casualty figures in Iraq look extremely small. Losing a single American life in battle is unfortunate, but it happens - and it will always happen so long as we want to promote freedom. Sending a volunteer force of men and women into harm's way cannot be an easy decision and to imply that the focus of this nation's foreign policy for the last three years has reduced that decision to money is insulting to the people that WE ALL elected to lead us. The people who have made the decisions in Iraq are not perfect, but don't insult them by believing this to be simply about money.

One last note, any serviceman I've heard talk about Iraq (and there have been very few) all agree that they have made progress and drastically improved the quality of life for the Iraqi people. None of them regret their mission. So support the troops, but consider that if their mission were SO misguided, why would they of all people be pleased to have done it?