Most Important Camaro, the V6
01-13-2006 | 03:34 AM
#76
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Posts: 249
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Maybe we can have him jump in....but I think he said, bury the tach, wait three seconds, and shift. 
lets just say it would turn till you broke something in the valve train
01-13-2006 | 03:56 AM
#77
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,440
From: five-one-oh/nine-oh-nine
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by Mike2001SS
He was not the only one that had one new. That was my first new camaro in 1969 and me and a friend in town that also had one new shifted at 8500.
lets just say it would turn till you broke something in the valve train
lets just say it would turn till you broke something in the valve train
as far as the V6, I think it would do wonders for the Camaro's image to shoe in the cammer. the 3.2 would be a decent choice to go along with the whole "thoroughly modern" slogan Bob's been throwing around. it wouldn't be the ideal choice for an enthusiast (there are V6 enthusiasts among us if you didn't know), but it would be ideal for attracting joe/jane public. GM would have no problem selling this to the hoards of "it still has pushrods??" and those who don't care so much for performance as much as they care about image.
ironically, on paper the 3.9L should rule all. more power/torque, better MPG, etc. but from what i've read about the cammer series, is it's responsive, smooth and refined. can the 3.9L deliver as well on at least two of those? i get the feeling it would NOT be as satisfying and refiend as the cammer. at the very least, it won't attract any borderline honda fans.
of course GM probably won't do it. does someone actually have real (or close) cost of materials/manufacture numbers for the new HVs vs HFs?? i mean how much could GM really be saving here with all this myriad of engine options??? seems like a waste of resources and engineering to me.
Last edited by morb|d; 01-13-2006 at 04:16 AM.
01-13-2006 | 04:39 AM
#78
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From: Peoria, IL
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by RhinoSS
Did I count 8 engine options? Although it definitely would make everyone happy, that might be a little expensive for GM 
I did say the LS7 would be for a limited edition, so that cuts my list to 8 regular production engines.
There is really no reason for the 3.5L to be there other than having a more fuel efficient base engine than the Mustang, but the 3.9L has practically the same gas mileage as the V6 Mustang and has 30 more HP, so we will scratch off the 3.5L. The same reasoning was there for the 280hp 3.9L, but the DOD 5.3L would be just as fuel efficient than the 3.9L and it would be more efficient (while providing similar power) than the Mustang GT. So, we will scratch the second 3.9L off the list as well. I still think the supercharged V6 would catch a lot of peoples attention though (there are tons of GTP Grand Prix's around here).
A supercharged version each engine. Sounds plausible to me
.Final List (I also changed some hp numbers from my previous list):
3 different engine sizes, 6 engines (3 N/A and 3 Supercharged).
Base - 250hp 3.9L
Sport - 300hp 5.3L
Z28 or SS - 350hp Supercharged 3.9L or 400hp LS3
SS or Z28 - 450hp Supercharged 5.3L or 500hp Supercharged LS3.
(ZL1 not included on list)
David
Last edited by Diognes56; 01-13-2006 at 04:58 AM.
01-13-2006 | 05:06 AM
#79
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From: Peoria, IL
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Also, in regards to my use of Z28 as the "top" Camaro, I do so because (as others have said before) a SS can be anything but a Z28 has to be a Camaro. Also because I feel, with the Z06 being the track ready top Corvette, having the Z28 being the track ready top Camaro would be fitting. There is no doubt the SS's of the 60's and early 70's put down more power than the Z28's, but the Z28 was the best all around performer.
Anyway, I am just as comfortable with the SS being the top car as I would be the Z28. I just want a V8 Camaro.
David
Anyway, I am just as comfortable with the SS being the top car as I would be the Z28. I just want a V8 Camaro.
David
Last edited by Diognes56; 01-13-2006 at 05:10 AM.
01-13-2006 | 08:20 AM
#80
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Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
When it comes to engine's and a six or 8 cylinder in my family I am a lucky dog. My wife drives a 6 daily beater to work to get beat up in work parking lots but what she gets in at home and on weekends has to be the most top dog there is and wants hers to beat mine and believe me she can drive the hell out of a 6 speed. Funny thing when she took delivery of her 2001 SOM SS Vert with neutral leather and neutral top maxed out at SLP when the salesman gave her the keys she took him for a ride down the street in it while I waited at the dealer for them. When they got back he was pale and his knuckles were white from holding on and ever since when he will see her he grins
01-13-2006 | 08:56 AM
#81
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 64
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by Diognes56
Also, in regards to my use of Z28 as the "top" Camaro, I do so because (as others have said before) a SS can be anything but a Z28 has to be a Camaro. Also because I feel, with the Z06 being the track ready top Corvette, having the Z28 being the track ready top Camaro would be fitting. There is no doubt the SS's of the 60's and early 70's put down more power than the Z28's, but the Z28 was the best all around performer.
Anyway, I am just as comfortable with the SS being the top car as I would be the Z28. I just want a V8 Camaro.
David
Anyway, I am just as comfortable with the SS being the top car as I would be the Z28. I just want a V8 Camaro.
David
your comment on the corvette makes sense, to a certain extent. however, we have to remember that it does not have an "SS" level. so of course, the only thing it would be when upgraded is a "Z". thus, i do not think it is fair to use the corvette as a point of comparison to define the difference between "Z" and "SS".
right now, chevy is pushing their "SS" line of cars as their top performers as seen on their website. I would think that if they released a camaro "SS" and "Z28", they would make the "SS" as top of the line to match the rest of their lineup.
what do you think?
personally, i used to always see the "SS" as being above the z/28... i saw the Z/28 as a road racing car, and the SS as the 'big one'.
i do believe the base 6 cylinder camaro will be the most 'significant' model of all, but in terms of importance i would have to choose the next model up (z/28?), as it will be what consumers and media will most likely pit against a Mustang GT, and Hemi Challenger. Then, in a super-american-car shootout, use the top model (SS?) to fight the shelby and 392 hemi Challenger. that is the way i see it.
a nice RS package for the base camaro can make it into an insurance-beater up-level sports car. a little better wheels, slightly stiffer suspension.
what goes into each level model MUST match or beat comparable competitor's cars. a base camaro should have at least 210, 220hp, a base 8 cylinder needs at least 310, 320hp or so. it will allow GM marketing to claim superiority. why is this important? let's face it, if magazines, television, and their neighbor all say "yeah the camaro has more horsepower than a comparable mustang", then they will definitely take a good look and feel better knowing that they have that extra "bonus". the key to making people buy your product is to convince them they're getting a good deal. give the cherry on top, with a little extra whip cream, and the camaro will sell.
Last edited by burningsquirrels; 01-13-2006 at 09:08 AM.
01-13-2006 | 09:21 AM
#82
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Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
here's another thought:
let's look at GM for a sec.
- they want "SS" as top of the line performance (per chevy website).
- the corvette z06 is pretty much a daily driveable track car.
- assumption: there will be both a z28 and a super sport camaro.
- assumption: the corvette and camaro are both marketed side-by-side as their true sports cars (ignore the cobalt here).
- remember? the formula was a stripped down t/a (or was it a v6 firebird with an 8cyl? i forget).
how would you feel if chevy made the "SS" line as a fully optioned car with a top motor. seperately, there could be a base v6 car with wheels, brakes, engine, and SS suspension without the interior/power/etc. options of the SS and call it a Z28. kind of like a stripped SS ready to go racin' at a lower cost? the SS could still be the "big daddy" of the lineup; this leaves the Z/28 being the performance freak special, just like the Z06 corvette.
let's look at GM for a sec.
- they want "SS" as top of the line performance (per chevy website).
- the corvette z06 is pretty much a daily driveable track car.
- assumption: there will be both a z28 and a super sport camaro.
- assumption: the corvette and camaro are both marketed side-by-side as their true sports cars (ignore the cobalt here).
- remember? the formula was a stripped down t/a (or was it a v6 firebird with an 8cyl? i forget).
how would you feel if chevy made the "SS" line as a fully optioned car with a top motor. seperately, there could be a base v6 car with wheels, brakes, engine, and SS suspension without the interior/power/etc. options of the SS and call it a Z28. kind of like a stripped SS ready to go racin' at a lower cost? the SS could still be the "big daddy" of the lineup; this leaves the Z/28 being the performance freak special, just like the Z06 corvette.
Last edited by burningsquirrels; 01-13-2006 at 09:35 AM.
01-13-2006 | 09:29 AM
#83
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Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by 5thGen
I know there have been about 30 threads started on puttin gthe LS7 into the Camaro.
That's great and all, but if the Base Camaro is not a major hit, then we won't have a Camaro to put the LS7 into.
So, lets discuss what you WANT for the base version, What you EXPECT, and what you think will sell.
I've said it a lot, and I will say it again, I think an affordable V8 will be the key to selling a lot more cars.
If the 400 hp V8 is a lot more than the Mustang GT ($25,140 MSRP as how I'd order it), Then I won't be getting one.
Lutz has hinted at being 200 over the base Mustang ($19,115 MSRP), with the base Camaro.
If I were to buy a Camaro, I'd want the Base model, and want the option to add in a V8, without going 10k more for a full Z/28 package or 15k more for an SS package.
5 speed manual would be fine, cloth interior, and yes, I would go for roll up windows, talk about Retro! Nothing is more retro than reaching over the console to roll down the passenger side window at a light.
Even put in a Simple CD player (six speakers not 15), no Changer, no Navi, no heated seats, No power mirrors...... these are things I could live without in order to get a kick *** car.
If they offered the base for 19,350, and the option to add the V8 was 3000, that would be 22,350. 3k for upgrading the engine sounds ok to me. am I off here? I am talking a 300 hp LS engine, not the LS2, but if that was 3k, then I'd take it anyway!
Why not a suspension upgrade for 2k? So, at 24,350, you can have a 300 hp Mustang eater. That is what I'd like to see, and at that price, I truly think it would help boost sales way more than any 500 hp LS9 or LS27 or whatever.
Make the RS package available to V6's and V8's also, so you'll have the ground effects, rims, leather etc.
your thoughts?
We're talking base model here, no talk about LS7s or I'll be forced to track you down, make you take "uncomfortable" pictures and home movies send them to your mom.
That's great and all, but if the Base Camaro is not a major hit, then we won't have a Camaro to put the LS7 into.
So, lets discuss what you WANT for the base version, What you EXPECT, and what you think will sell.
I've said it a lot, and I will say it again, I think an affordable V8 will be the key to selling a lot more cars.
If the 400 hp V8 is a lot more than the Mustang GT ($25,140 MSRP as how I'd order it), Then I won't be getting one.
Lutz has hinted at being 200 over the base Mustang ($19,115 MSRP), with the base Camaro.
If I were to buy a Camaro, I'd want the Base model, and want the option to add in a V8, without going 10k more for a full Z/28 package or 15k more for an SS package.
5 speed manual would be fine, cloth interior, and yes, I would go for roll up windows, talk about Retro! Nothing is more retro than reaching over the console to roll down the passenger side window at a light.
Even put in a Simple CD player (six speakers not 15), no Changer, no Navi, no heated seats, No power mirrors...... these are things I could live without in order to get a kick *** car.
If they offered the base for 19,350, and the option to add the V8 was 3000, that would be 22,350. 3k for upgrading the engine sounds ok to me. am I off here? I am talking a 300 hp LS engine, not the LS2, but if that was 3k, then I'd take it anyway!
Why not a suspension upgrade for 2k? So, at 24,350, you can have a 300 hp Mustang eater. That is what I'd like to see, and at that price, I truly think it would help boost sales way more than any 500 hp LS9 or LS27 or whatever.
Make the RS package available to V6's and V8's also, so you'll have the ground effects, rims, leather etc.
your thoughts?
We're talking base model here, no talk about LS7s or I'll be forced to track you down, make you take "uncomfortable" pictures and home movies send them to your mom.
If you would like a reality check on your points, your best bet is to look at the content of base models in the rest of Chevrolet's and Pontiac's range.
So, what are you going to get in a base car?
Well, you have a good chance of seeing power windows, even if it is the base model, because of the limited acceptance of roll-up windows and the added complexity they entail.
You're probably getting power locks for the same reason.
You're most likely going to get a CD player, but not a changer.
You'll get AC for sure.
You'll most likely get "Twilight Sentinel" and DRL's. Hopefully ones that can be defeated.
You'll get a remote trunk release.
You'll probably have manual seat tracks w/ recliners and an "Easy-Entry" seat on the passenger side.
ABS and traction control will likely be standard.
Passenger side airbags will be there, and possibly even side-curtain ones.
The bigger sticking point I see is 4 optional motors... that's a lot of complexity. But given the spread in power from a 3.9 liter V6 to a full-snot LSx in the 450-550hp range, it begins to make sense.
Allowing for increased power output over the next few years it looks like a span of 275-500hp is going to be the requirement.
01-13-2006 | 09:31 AM
#84
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 95
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
I'd like to see the base version have enough power to pull it's weight. I'll never forget my 81 Camaro with the 2.8l V6. That thing was mint, inside and out, and people had more than enough time to look at it, cause it could barely move 
I'd say 250-270 hp. No single tailpipe exhaust. Y it out. The one thing I didn't like about the 4th gens, is from behind, I always under the impression it was a Camaro body sitting on some other car, cause of the boring exhaust. V6 or not, it's a Camaro... spend a little extra to make the exhaust look decent.
That's really the only two things I'd like to see on the V6.
I'd say 250-270 hp. No single tailpipe exhaust. Y it out. The one thing I didn't like about the 4th gens, is from behind, I always under the impression it was a Camaro body sitting on some other car, cause of the boring exhaust. V6 or not, it's a Camaro... spend a little extra to make the exhaust look decent.
That's really the only two things I'd like to see on the V6.
01-13-2006 | 09:32 AM
#85
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
My Thoughts:
Base: 3.9 V6 (245 HP)
SS: 5.3 V8 (330 HP)
SS: Optional 6.0 V8 (400 HP)
Z28: 6.0 V8 Racing Model (425 HP)
ZL1: 7.0 V8 (500 HP) or Blown 6.2 (450-500 HP)
Base: 3.9 V6 (245 HP)
SS: 5.3 V8 (330 HP)
SS: Optional 6.0 V8 (400 HP)
Z28: 6.0 V8 Racing Model (425 HP)
ZL1: 7.0 V8 (500 HP) or Blown 6.2 (450-500 HP)
Last edited by Chrome383Z; 01-13-2006 at 09:35 AM.
01-13-2006 | 09:57 AM
#86
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 176
From: Juarez, Chihuahua, Mexico
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by samualt
What is the point of a V6 Camaro? It is like owning a gun without bullets. It is a bat without a ball. It's Abbot without Costello. It's pointless.
I think GM is in such financial straights that we will be doing good to have just one version of the new Camaro. And since they have already touted the V8 LS7 then I hope that's the base model. Make one version of the car and a lot of em! Make the performance version cheap enough for everyone.
I think GM is in such financial straights that we will be doing good to have just one version of the new Camaro. And since they have already touted the V8 LS7 then I hope that's the base model. Make one version of the car and a lot of em! Make the performance version cheap enough for everyone.
if some one is concerned about gas mileage, go buy a small toyota or honda!!!
If a v6 is needed for GM to make money and release the camaro, then do it. but in this case make sure that the v8 is as powerfull as a corvette at that time.
IMO
01-13-2006 | 10:04 AM
#87
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,255
From: new jersey
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro
I saw your post but I was going for clairfication not bragging rights. I was trying to get across the Z codes what they meant and how the definition of that they were would dictate what the cars had to be. There is alot of arguement of what is "better", Z28 in my book, but Im trying to get across that if you stick to what they are supposed to be, it takes away some of the subjectiveness and forces what they become.
i'm actually really glad you elaborated on the Z code cars.
my post was just to get out the specifics of the Z/28 and the SS, not for bragging rights (i've been here long enough to know having those 2 models in any sentence will cause some kind of stir).
it was more in response to some of the guys posting before that didn't really know the difference between what the SS and Z/28 really started out as.
01-13-2006 | 10:25 AM
#88
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 64
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
the V6 is absolutely necessary for the camaro to succeed.
don't think of having six cylinders as abbott without costello. think of both the performance and the base version as abbott and costello themselves, the yin and the yang.
to give you an idea of how important the V6 is, they typically sold anywhere from 4:1 to 6:1 in favor of the lesser engine in the 90's.
don't think of having six cylinders as abbott without costello. think of both the performance and the base version as abbott and costello themselves, the yin and the yang.
to give you an idea of how important the V6 is, they typically sold anywhere from 4:1 to 6:1 in favor of the lesser engine in the 90's.
01-13-2006 | 10:44 AM
#89
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Posts: 825
From: Stamford, VT
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by notgetleft
Jim you make no sense.
- First of all, the thirdgen with it's myriad of engine options was the last time camaro outsold mustang. That's a good thing.
- You're right about the LG4/LO3 watering down the performance image, i'll give that GM shoudl have never put Z28 badges on those cars. But even despite being weaker performers than the 5.0, IT OUTSOLD MUSTANG, and that's what counted. If the LG4 cars killed the image to joe public, how do you reconcile my previous statement?
- back to engine options, most of the past decade mustang has had no fewer than 3 engine choices. If V8 buyers only cared about performance, cobra would have been their volume car. It never was. Same thing for Mach 1, mucyh more performance than base mustang, low volume sales. Hell those are great examples, look at the 03/04 cobra and mach 1. Despite Cobra being in the same price range and having more power and much more mod-able, it was outsold by GTO. Despite mach 1 being a mustang and carrying that bandwagon edge, was outsold by GTO.
Which all boils down to your main closing thought, which is it has to look great. I'd also add that it has to be comfortable and have a great option list, because maybe now more than ever, gadgets are *IN*
And lastly, Camaro will NEED several engine options because the true enthusiasts (read: US) would not be happy with a 350hp camaro just like we wouldn't be happy with a 300hp mustang. On the flip side, the volume buyers (read: not many posting on this site) either get scared off by big power, or simply have no desire to pay more money to have that power. I don't think V6 alone will fill the base cars needs, some peopel probably would love the idea of having V8 sounds and torque without having enough power to get themselves into way too much trouble.
For example, a kid working under me on a project right now has a new C6 vette. He drives like my grandmother and when i make fun of the pathetic stock exhaust note his retort is he doesn't want an exhaust because he's already scared of the power it makes. My second line manager dropped $8k to get his mercury marauder fitted with a blower. last i talked to him about it, he still had never floored it again ever since the first time it downshifted to first at 30mph and turned the car straight off the road. He paid $8k and now he's afraid of his car, and it only did ~360rwhp, IOW, somewhere just over 400 at the crank in a plus 2 ton boat. My point, even people you would think are into performance can have too much of it very easily.
- First of all, the thirdgen with it's myriad of engine options was the last time camaro outsold mustang. That's a good thing.
- You're right about the LG4/LO3 watering down the performance image, i'll give that GM shoudl have never put Z28 badges on those cars. But even despite being weaker performers than the 5.0, IT OUTSOLD MUSTANG, and that's what counted. If the LG4 cars killed the image to joe public, how do you reconcile my previous statement?
- back to engine options, most of the past decade mustang has had no fewer than 3 engine choices. If V8 buyers only cared about performance, cobra would have been their volume car. It never was. Same thing for Mach 1, mucyh more performance than base mustang, low volume sales. Hell those are great examples, look at the 03/04 cobra and mach 1. Despite Cobra being in the same price range and having more power and much more mod-able, it was outsold by GTO. Despite mach 1 being a mustang and carrying that bandwagon edge, was outsold by GTO.
Which all boils down to your main closing thought, which is it has to look great. I'd also add that it has to be comfortable and have a great option list, because maybe now more than ever, gadgets are *IN*
And lastly, Camaro will NEED several engine options because the true enthusiasts (read: US) would not be happy with a 350hp camaro just like we wouldn't be happy with a 300hp mustang. On the flip side, the volume buyers (read: not many posting on this site) either get scared off by big power, or simply have no desire to pay more money to have that power. I don't think V6 alone will fill the base cars needs, some peopel probably would love the idea of having V8 sounds and torque without having enough power to get themselves into way too much trouble.
For example, a kid working under me on a project right now has a new C6 vette. He drives like my grandmother and when i make fun of the pathetic stock exhaust note his retort is he doesn't want an exhaust because he's already scared of the power it makes. My second line manager dropped $8k to get his mercury marauder fitted with a blower. last i talked to him about it, he still had never floored it again ever since the first time it downshifted to first at 30mph and turned the car straight off the road. He paid $8k and now he's afraid of his car, and it only did ~360rwhp, IOW, somewhere just over 400 at the crank in a plus 2 ton boat. My point, even people you would think are into performance can have too much of it very easily.
GM lost sales with 4th gens, yet Mustang sales remained very strong. Obvously there's a sucessful business strategy out there for a 2 engine car.
Trying to use the same strategy that worked for the thirdgens 20 years ago won't work. The buying market is too different now. GM really needs to understand the sucess of the Mustang, not the sucess of a 20 year old Camaro. What made Mustang sales so strong over the last 10 years while fbody sales plummeted? That's what my last post tried to address.
01-13-2006 | 11:04 AM
#90
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,255
From: new jersey
Re: Most Important Camaro, the V6
Originally Posted by Jim85IROC
What made Mustang sales so strong over the last 10 years while fbody sales plummeted? That's what my last post tried to address.
one of the biggest complaints i ever heard about he 4th gen was everday livability. it really just wasn't a good everyday driver for John or Jane Q Public.
i know people on here think differently, but we are enthusiasts, we learn to live with little things that would drive an average person insane.
the term "Four Door Vette" completely illustrates that point. that's what most people saw it as. hard to get in and out of, didn't ride smooth, too much power, can't see the end of the hood, etc.
the Mustang, for all intense purposes, feels "softer" to the general populace. my girlfriend, who is a real Mustang enthusiast along with her mom and dad, commented a few times on my 96. it was the first Camaro she ever drove. she said, stock for stock, it felt like a race car compared to her Mustang. that should say somehting right there considering she pretty much grew up in a Mustang.