View Poll Results: Which Mustang should Z/28 compete with?
2012 SVT Boss
23
57.50%
GT500
14
35.00%
I don't know
3
7.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll
Which Mustang should Z/28 compete with?
10-01-2009 | 02:22 PM
#16
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
Some comments though. Remember when alot of people started freaking out at even the thought of comparing an M3 to a future Z/28 package? Why? Dunno. Maybe they were afraid that fancy Italian loafers would be required with Z/28 ownership, if certain world class attributes were benchmarked? jg95z28 still gets fairly apoplectic when the topic comes up. 
However that's not good enough in your eyes. Admit it, what you really want is a 400hp RWD-Cobalt for $30k. If that's what you are really looking for, then why not consider the Hyundai Genesis coupe?
10-01-2009 | 02:32 PM
#17
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
I'm not denying the M3 is a great car. However its priced out of the price point of the target Camaro buyer. If you want M3 performance at a Chevrolet price, you're going to have to sacrifice something. They've already done that by sacrificing weight with the 2010 Camaro.
However that's not good enough in your eyes. Admit it, what you really want is a 400hp RWD-Cobalt for $30k. If that's what you are really looking for, then why not consider the Hyundai Genesis coupe?
However that's not good enough in your eyes. Admit it, what you really want is a 400hp RWD-Cobalt for $30k. If that's what you are really looking for, then why not consider the Hyundai Genesis coupe?
10-01-2009 | 02:39 PM
#18
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
I know you did. You seem to always leave out, or conveniently forget that my primary reason against comparing the Camaro and M3 are cost/price, not performance.
If I wanted to spend M3 money I'd be cross-shopping the M3, Audi S5, CTS-coupe, MBZ C63, and Lexus ISF... Camaro would never enter the picture. However I'd like my high performance sports coupes to be under $50K please.
If I wanted to spend M3 money I'd be cross-shopping the M3, Audi S5, CTS-coupe, MBZ C63, and Lexus ISF... Camaro would never enter the picture. However I'd like my high performance sports coupes to be under $50K please.
10-01-2009 | 02:45 PM
#19
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,505
From: Charleston, WV
I'm not denying the M3 is a great car. However its priced out of the price point of the target Camaro buyer. If you want M3 performance at a Chevrolet price, you're going to have to sacrifice something. They've already done that by sacrificing weight with the 2010 Camaro.
However that's not good enough in your eyes. Admit it, what you really want is a 400hp RWD-Cobalt for $30k. If that's what you are really looking for, then why not consider the Hyundai Genesis coupe?
However that's not good enough in your eyes. Admit it, what you really want is a 400hp RWD-Cobalt for $30k. If that's what you are really looking for, then why not consider the Hyundai Genesis coupe?
Speaking of the Genesis coupe.....its not exactly flying off the shelves
Sorry Charlie...not tryin to bust ur *****....but u missed this prediction so far.
Goes to show ya Chassis isn't everything....I notice that alot of people around here, want to compare the upcoming 2010 Camaro to the 2005 Mustang or the 2004 GTO or the 200x whatever. Too bad those cars are pushovers compared to the gauntlet which Camaro will actually face .
A month or two after Camaro is released, Hyundai will have it's new RWD coupe available for sale. It'll be abit smaller than Camaro. About the size of an SN95 Mustang. It's chassis will be all new and completey modern. And Hyundai has already committed to it coming in under $20K - and that's with a turbo motor. A 300+ hp, 3.8L V6 version, will also be available for about the price of a current Mustang GT. Oh, and Hyundai also has a V8 which will fit this architecture.
Think about this for a second. If you are a 20-something, do you spend $19,xxx on a tidy, RWD, sport coupe with a version of the Caliber SRT-4's motor as standard - or do you spend $23,xxx on a big honkin' Camaro with a V6?
Anyone who think's that this Hyundai isn't going to put a large dent in the sporty coupe market is not dealing in reality. These cars are going to fly off the shelf.
Shortly thereafter, a new Mustang will hit the scene as well. All indications are, that it will have more agressive styling than the current car. It's powertrains will be lightyears ahead of what Mustang has now. It's chassis will be far improved as well. Ford was originally considering adding an IRS to the current D2C architecture. However now, the Mustang is rumored to be moving to the all new "Huntsman" architecture. If that's the case, expect an up-to-date chassis, radically reduced rear overhangs, and a smaller overall Mustang.
These two coupes specifically, will lay the gauntlet for Camaro. And we haven't even mentioned Challenger and other competitors.
Let's hope - let's really hope, Camaro doesn't bring a knife to a gunfight.
A month or two after Camaro is released, Hyundai will have it's new RWD coupe available for sale. It'll be abit smaller than Camaro. About the size of an SN95 Mustang. It's chassis will be all new and completey modern. And Hyundai has already committed to it coming in under $20K - and that's with a turbo motor. A 300+ hp, 3.8L V6 version, will also be available for about the price of a current Mustang GT. Oh, and Hyundai also has a V8 which will fit this architecture.
Think about this for a second. If you are a 20-something, do you spend $19,xxx on a tidy, RWD, sport coupe with a version of the Caliber SRT-4's motor as standard - or do you spend $23,xxx on a big honkin' Camaro with a V6?
Anyone who think's that this Hyundai isn't going to put a large dent in the sporty coupe market is not dealing in reality. These cars are going to fly off the shelf.
Shortly thereafter, a new Mustang will hit the scene as well. All indications are, that it will have more agressive styling than the current car. It's powertrains will be lightyears ahead of what Mustang has now. It's chassis will be far improved as well. Ford was originally considering adding an IRS to the current D2C architecture. However now, the Mustang is rumored to be moving to the all new "Huntsman" architecture. If that's the case, expect an up-to-date chassis, radically reduced rear overhangs, and a smaller overall Mustang.
These two coupes specifically, will lay the gauntlet for Camaro. And we haven't even mentioned Challenger and other competitors.
Let's hope - let's really hope, Camaro doesn't bring a knife to a gunfight.
10-01-2009 | 02:59 PM
#20
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,482
From: ohio
whenever they were testing the v6 camaro they were putting it up against the 335 coupe. why would it not be acceptable to put the z28 against the m3? not every comparisson that is done, is priced perfectly to match dollar for dollar with the competator. sometimes its just the essence of the car that puts it in certain catagories.
10-01-2009 | 03:03 PM
#21
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Speaking of the Genesis coupe.....its not exactly flying off the shelves
Sorry Charlie...not tryin to bust ur *****....but u missed this prediction so far. Goes to show ya Chassis isn't everything....
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=557521
Sorry Charlie...not tryin to bust ur *****....but u missed this prediction so far.
Goes to show ya Chassis isn't everything....https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=557521
Alot has changed since 2007.
"Huntsman" is dead.
Pontiac is dead.
Saturn dead.
Opel???
The economy has melted down.
General Motors is owned by the government.
New car sales volumes are down several MILLION.
How many Genesis coupes have been sold BTW? I thought Hyundai groups the coupe and sedan together. I've only seen a handful on the road but Hyundai says their sales on them is "smokin' hot". I think the first turbo 4's are just hitting the dealers now and selling as soon as they get there. I'd like to see the numbers though, if anyone has them.
And what does "chassis being everything" have to do with that?
Last edited by Z284ever; 10-01-2009 at 03:54 PM.
10-01-2009 | 03:24 PM
#22
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
I know you did. You seem to always leave out, or conveniently forget that my primary reason against comparing the Camaro and M3 are cost/price, not performance.
If I wanted to spend M3 money I'd be cross-shopping the M3, Audi S5, CTS-coupe, MBZ C63, and Lexus ISF... Camaro would never enter the picture. However I'd like my high performance sports coupes to be under $50K please.
If I wanted to spend M3 money I'd be cross-shopping the M3, Audi S5, CTS-coupe, MBZ C63, and Lexus ISF... Camaro would never enter the picture. However I'd like my high performance sports coupes to be under $50K please.
What do you think a Z/28 is going to cost? I mean, out the door with dealer rape. Probably not that far off I'd imagine. What the hell, lots of people are paying 335 type money for their SS's.
Plus, as I already mentioned, what's wrong with benchmarking what's good in a competitor's product, even if it costs 10% or 20% more? Nothing, that's what. Hence, Mustang engineers seen driving an M3 around a Michigan race track.
10-01-2009 | 03:43 PM
#23
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
(b) Forget dealer markup. That is always high at first due to supply and demand. I saw a '09 GT500KR stickered for ONLY $83k in a Ford dealer recently. Does that means it should be cross shopped with a Porsche 911?
10-01-2009 | 03:46 PM
#24
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
10-01-2009 | 03:51 PM
#25
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
I can give you the dealer websites if you'd like. I just did a dealer inventory search on M3s in the greater San Francisco Bay Area on Edmunds.com. Not one was priced under $72K. At least one was over $80k. BMWs are like Toyotas in these parts; you can't turn your head without seeing one. Forget the listed base MSRP just under $60k... no one buys a "base" M3 and most dealers don't even carry them in inventory.
10-01-2009 | 04:01 PM
#26
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
I can give you the dealer websites if you'd like. I just did a dealer inventory search on M3s in the greater San Francisco Bay Area on Edmunds.com. Not one was priced under $72K. At least one was over $80k. BMWs are like Toyotas in these parts; you can't turn your head without seeing one. Forget the listed base MSRP just under $60k... no one buys a "base" M3 and most dealers don't even carry them in inventory.
I think I would. They had a couple at the dealer with no options other than the 19" wheels. With cloth seats even. It seemed like an attractive package to me -and actually the cloth seats were pretty cool. The again, that particular dealer is into motorsports and belongs to an exclusive road race country club in the area. One of those was his personal car. You could buy something like that around here for mid $50's if you bargained hard.
Last edited by Z284ever; 10-01-2009 at 04:04 PM.
10-01-2009 | 04:17 PM
#27
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
Haven't we already established you're an oddball?
I'd want mine with heated leather seats and nav. Otherwise what's the point? Another thing to note is on these types of cars (M3, Lexus, Audi etc) the quality of the materials (e.g. leather) is above and beyond anything Chevrolet has to offer. Put Lexus quality leather in a Z/28 along with a "real" nav system and I'm sure it would easily sell for mid-high $50Ks.
I'd want mine with heated leather seats and nav. Otherwise what's the point? Another thing to note is on these types of cars (M3, Lexus, Audi etc) the quality of the materials (e.g. leather) is above and beyond anything Chevrolet has to offer. Put Lexus quality leather in a Z/28 along with a "real" nav system and I'm sure it would easily sell for mid-high $50Ks.
10-01-2009 | 04:28 PM
#28
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,505
From: Charleston, WV
What do you think, I'm a fortune teller?
Alot has changed since 2007.
"Huntsman" is dead.
Pontiac is dead.
Saturn dead.
Opel???
The economy has melted down.
General Motors is owned by the government.
New car sales volumes are down several MILLION.
How many Genesis coupes have been sold BTW? I thought Hyundai groups the coupe and sedan together. I've only seen a handful on the road but Hyundai says their sales on them is "smokin' hot". I think the first turbo 4's are just hitting the dealers now and selling as soon as they get there. I'd like to see the numbers though, if anyone has them.
And what does "chassis being everything" have to do with that?
Alot has changed since 2007.
"Huntsman" is dead.
Pontiac is dead.
Saturn dead.
Opel???
The economy has melted down.
General Motors is owned by the government.
New car sales volumes are down several MILLION.
How many Genesis coupes have been sold BTW? I thought Hyundai groups the coupe and sedan together. I've only seen a handful on the road but Hyundai says their sales on them is "smokin' hot". I think the first turbo 4's are just hitting the dealers now and selling as soon as they get there. I'd like to see the numbers though, if anyone has them.
And what does "chassis being everything" have to do with that?
As far a sales who knows...but even if you split total Genesis sales in half (approx 2,000 a month) I would consider them weak...even the limited supply Challenger is selling 1,500 a month.
I was talking chassis because it is 3300 lbs handles better than the Camaro according to comparison tests....
10-01-2009 | 04:37 PM
#29
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
I didn't say u were a fortune teller
As far a sales who knows...but even if you split total Genesis sales in half (approx 2,000 a month) I would consider them weak...even the limited supply Challenger is selling 1,500 a month.
I was talking chassis because it is 3300 lbs handles better than the Camaro according to comparison tests....
As far a sales who knows...but even if you split total Genesis sales in half (approx 2,000 a month) I would consider them weak...even the limited supply Challenger is selling 1,500 a month.
I was talking chassis because it is 3300 lbs handles better than the Camaro according to comparison tests....
