My Camaro and GM worries~
07-03-2008, 08:59 PM
#31
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 107
Camaro will be MSRP or higher when it first comes out. Maybe after a year it'll be cheaper than MSRP, but there is no reason for the dealers to sell it below MSRP when they have a guaranteed sale to the enthusiasts.
The Camaro will not save GM
GM will make TONS of camaros,they will flood the market so price will be
under MSRP way under.And thats for there 2010 Camaro SS.
trust me that their will not be many Camaro enthusiasts when gas prices are at $7 a gal in early 2009.
I am paying $4.99 a gal now and think I will be paying $6 a gal before years end.
As for the VOLT
You are talking the the wrong people(a car salesperson you would believe?}
If today 1 out of 10 cars were Electric,we would have Brown outs and Blackouts all over the country.And your electric Bill would also jump.
The electric car will not happen for many many years to come.(only way if they build hundreds of nuclear plants}
I would think the Yugo would be back by then.
The Camaro will not save GM
GM will make TONS of camaros,they will flood the market so price will be
under MSRP way under.And thats for there 2010 Camaro SS.
trust me that their will not be many Camaro enthusiasts when gas prices are at $7 a gal in early 2009.
I am paying $4.99 a gal now and think I will be paying $6 a gal before years end.
As for the VOLT
You are talking the the wrong people(a car salesperson you would believe?}
If today 1 out of 10 cars were Electric,we would have Brown outs and Blackouts all over the country.And your electric Bill would also jump.
The electric car will not happen for many many years to come.(only way if they build hundreds of nuclear plants}
I would think the Yugo would be back by then.
07-04-2008, 01:05 AM
#32
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
It was rated at 17 and 26 mpg.
The V6 with a 5 speed was rated at 17 and 29 mpg.
Check EPA figures for the 2002 Camaro, still available at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm next time.
07-04-2008, 01:28 AM
#33
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
I disagree with you here. Toyota and GM may not make money on the vehicles, but if they can break even, then they are getting their research funded so that one day that will make money on these vehicles.
Maybe Ford will just try to buy the technology later after they see which one appears to be better and if the market for those vehicles still exists.
Maybe Ford will just try to buy the technology later after they see which one appears to be better and if the market for those vehicles still exists.
That "One day" you mention is well after 2010.
The real issue is making money to survive the next few years so GM Ford and Chrysler don't go under. Few facts:
1. Ford beat GM to market with Hybrids. The Escape was the 1st US volume Hybrid from a US car maker. They already have the technology, so they don't need to buy it.
2. GM is in the worse shape financially than any other automaker in the US.
3. GM does not expect to make money on the Volt.
Toyota still sells the Prius at a loss (even though it's a Hybrid, not an "electric").... even after it first went on sale 11 years ago in Japan and 8 frigging years here in the US (went on sale here in 2001).
What the big 3 need to survive is to become solvent very quickly and become solvent enough to keep them going through the start of the next decade. Creating a vehicle that isn't going to make them a thin dime, and in fact may cost them money is hardly going to upend a company focused on making production cars that actually make money and garner high sales.
The Volt is rolling advertisement as is the current Prius. It's a feel-good car for those who need to make a statement to the world instead of actually making a difference. Nevermind that a Toyota Yaris and likely the Chevrolet Beat will be more enviromentally friendly.
07-04-2008, 01:51 AM
#34
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 233
You mean like Toyota is finally making money on the Prius.... which they still aren't?
That "One day" you mention is well after 2010.
The real issue is making money to survive the next few years so GM Ford and Chrysler don't go under. Few facts:
1. Ford beat GM to market with Hybrids. The Escape was the 1st US volume Hybrid from a US car maker. They already have the technology, so they don't need to buy it.
2. GM is in the worse shape financially than any other automaker in the US.
3. GM does not expect to make money on the Volt.
Toyota still sells the Prius at a loss (even though it's a Hybrid, not an "electric").... even after it first went on sale 11 years ago in Japan and 8 frigging years here in the US (went on sale here in 2001).
What the big 3 need to survive is to become solvent very quickly and become solvent enough to keep them going through the start of the next decade. Creating a vehicle that isn't going to make them a thin dime, and in fact may cost them money is hardly going to upend a company focused on making production cars that actually make money and garner high sales.
The Volt is rolling advertisement as is the current Prius. It's a feel-good car for those who need to make a statement to the world instead of actually making a difference. Nevermind that a Toyota Yaris and likely the Chevrolet Beat will be more enviromentally friendly.
That "One day" you mention is well after 2010.
The real issue is making money to survive the next few years so GM Ford and Chrysler don't go under. Few facts:
1. Ford beat GM to market with Hybrids. The Escape was the 1st US volume Hybrid from a US car maker. They already have the technology, so they don't need to buy it.
2. GM is in the worse shape financially than any other automaker in the US.
3. GM does not expect to make money on the Volt.
Toyota still sells the Prius at a loss (even though it's a Hybrid, not an "electric").... even after it first went on sale 11 years ago in Japan and 8 frigging years here in the US (went on sale here in 2001).
What the big 3 need to survive is to become solvent very quickly and become solvent enough to keep them going through the start of the next decade. Creating a vehicle that isn't going to make them a thin dime, and in fact may cost them money is hardly going to upend a company focused on making production cars that actually make money and garner high sales.
The Volt is rolling advertisement as is the current Prius. It's a feel-good car for those who need to make a statement to the world instead of actually making a difference. Nevermind that a Toyota Yaris and likely the Chevrolet Beat will be more enviromentally friendly.
Hell, a few years ago an environmental study was done comparing vehicle "friendliness" taking into account a 175k mile life, and due to the exotic materials, manufacturing processes, and especially the pollution created when making those "green friendly" batteries (which would need at least one replacements if you figure on a 175k mile lifespan), the H2 Hummer came out slightly ahead of the Prius. Naturally, the media ignored this.
07-04-2008, 02:18 AM
#35
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
The only thing right now that will prevent a break up of Chrysler is if they partner with another company. They just don't have the cash to fix what they need and Cerberus is a investment firm so they will not suffer long term losses. Look for more talks with Nissan or a company from China. I look for a deal to be made soon. It is the only way for them to get small cars cheap.
Cerberus Will not lose money even on the 5% for ever. The Sale of Jeep and other assets like the trucks would reap profits on their investment and their are many willing buyers if they can not get a partner to supply new cars or cash flows.
Cerberus will no doubt stick with Chrysler until at least the start of the next decade. They will replace management if they are put into a bad position before then. Cerberus isn't going to simply put Chrysler up for sale without any casualties or knocked heads first.
Ford is taking a big risk on not supporting alturnitive fuel cars. They will look like hero's if they flop but they will have to buy technology at a great price if they have to enter the market. They are playing a conservitive game due to the fact they can not afford the loss if they fail. They are willing to take lesser future profits if they need to enter the market. I can't say it is wrong as they are smart to know not to gamble what is left of the company on a unproven field.
Ford two is one that wants to remain independent but willing to share in technology and models with a dance partner. Something may be in the future but nothing is on the screen right now just a lot of rumours.
Ford two is one that wants to remain independent but willing to share in technology and models with a dance partner. Something may be in the future but nothing is on the screen right now just a lot of rumours.
Ford is quickly adjusting to the demands of the marketplace. They are revamping truck plants (products that aren't selling) to small car plants (products that are selling). Ford was Escape has been available as a hybrid for 5 years. They are also boosting fuel economy while maintaing power by combining direct injection with turbocharging. The next Taurus looks like a winner.
The moneymakers will still be midsized conventional cars. The challenge will be in making bigger profits on smaller cars.
As for alternative fuels, Ford currently has natural gas powered cars available now. They have E85 capable vehicles, also available now. As mentioned, they already make hybrids....Unless we're talking about nuclear reactors or vehicles that run off of nothing more than one's imagination, I'd say Ford has the alternative fuel market pretty much covered already.
The Focus is selling mostly due to a lot of advertising, high gas and cheap prices. It is not a great cars and Ford already has better small cars planned to replace it. Sales are up in great numbers as last year they could not give them away. Fusion is steady and the Tuarus is not better than the 500.
General Motor's best selling car right now is the Cobalt which sold 20,888 last month (a mere 1800 more than last year's Focus sales).
The Pontiac G6 which by every account is still a sucess sold so far this year 85,682 (far less than what Focus sold by this time last year).
Don't know about you, but it sounds to me like Ford was doing alot better than giving the Focus away last year.
Fusion is up 18% for June, and 11% for the year, so it's far from holding steady.
Taurus is down 54%, 12% for the year.
June 2006, the Ford Five Hundred reached sales of 3029 for the month and 30,309 YTD. In 2007, the Taurus reached 8,865 for the month, 36,270 YTD. This year, 4,099 for June and 36,270 YTD. The Taurus is still doing significantly better than the Five Hundred, but looking at the sales increase of the Fusion, it's clear that buyers that would have bought a Five Hundred are instead turning to Fusions.
Focus is doing well because people want it. Ditto Fusion.
GM is moving Aveos like crazy for the same reasons as the Focus is selling Cheap to buy and high gas prices.
Aveo sold 4,511 cars last month next to Focus' 17,950. Aveo's year to date total is 30,482... Focus is 96,732.
A 20% sales drop and being left for dead by Ford's Focus? I'd say Aveo isn't even on the radar screen, let alone remotely selling any amount that might fall under the catagory of "selling like crazy".
Even the Saturn Aura outsold it by nearly 25%....hell, even the "dead-man-walking" Ford Ranger outsold it (4,882 vs 4,511).
At this point GM has not shown its hand as other than the Volt, Delta II and the shut down of the truck lines we really have no insight of where they are going.
IS the Alpha a go? I the future going to include more 3.6 V6 cars some with Turbos? Are we going to get more Diesels? Are we going to see a Zeta Hybrid. Is one of the BOP group going to die? Is Hummer going to be sold or reconfigures on the V6 H4? Is Cadillac going to get the BMW engine to replace the canceled V8? How many cars will the Delta II give us. Nibody half ton V6 Trucks?
Holden is getting a diesel and a hybrid together for the Commodore.
Odds are there will not be another GM diviusion killed since GM doesn't have the money for it (see: final cost to kill Oldsmobile).
GM getting a BMW engine to replace Northstar was an internet rumor, nothing more.
Hummer is likely to be up for sale.
Like Espilon 2, Delta 2 is nothing more than an AWD capable Delta. No telling how many cars
GM has to make the most efficent use of funds and get the best milage cars out. The VOlt is like the moon shot, the first one is the most expensive but with time and more models the price will drop and profits will climb.
The biggest problem for the Volt per GM is the gas in the tank as if the car is used for under 40 miles daily trips the fuel will decay in the tank with time. What do you do to preserve it? If tyhe Volt fail hit will hurt GM but not kill them.
The biggest problem for the Volt per GM is the gas in the tank as if the car is used for under 40 miles daily trips the fuel will decay in the tank with time. What do you do to preserve it? If tyhe Volt fail hit will hurt GM but not kill them.
As anyone will tell you, gasoline or diesel fuel simply doesn't decay in a fuel tank.
All in all there is a lot of change coming and we just need to brace for it. If the reports of Iran getting attact are correct the economy is in for a real bump. Also if we face another 9/11 today the after effects will be much greater. What the out look today is can change in one hour.
Last edited by guionM; 07-04-2008 at 02:48 AM.
07-04-2008, 08:15 AM
#36
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
I'm also worried about Camaro and GM. I hate chatting about it but not thinking about the possibility of GM taking drastic steps... won't make the problem go away.
Given G8 isn't breaking sales records, and Camaro is a close cousin, I'm worried about Camaro too. I've waited a long time for this car and I'm not saying anything new by iterating that in just two short years since the concept was shown, the world has changed drastically.
Given G8 isn't breaking sales records, and Camaro is a close cousin, I'm worried about Camaro too. I've waited a long time for this car and I'm not saying anything new by iterating that in just two short years since the concept was shown, the world has changed drastically.
07-04-2008, 10:55 AM
#37
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Houston Area
Posts: 524
True...I've got a 4 cyl. S-10 and a Monte LS with a 3400, intake and exhaust. The six gets better mileage than the four.
You're one of those people that went rushing to the store to buy a washboard and bucket just before Y2K when all of the electricity and cars were supposed to stop working, aren't you? 
07-04-2008, 07:44 PM
#38
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by JohnnyTuinals
There will be many BLACKOUTSSSSSSS in our homes....
You think I am Wrong??????
You're one of those people that went rushing to the store to buy a washboard and bucket just before Y2K when all of the electricity and cars were supposed to stop working, aren't you?
Yep I didrun out and got a washboard a week before T2K
But to me it does not take any brains that the VOLT will not be built.
Its only common sense(I guess you are lackiing some}
If there are 100,000 Volts on the road and a million of other Electric autos in the next 5 years.You really think there will be no Blackouts????The money you save on gas you will be paying with your electric bill if you home does not go black.....
As for the Camaro SS
It will not surpise me that they don't make the car
GM has no money and no one will loan them anything.
I will buy a Camaro SS if it does come out,but if it does they will flood the market place with them.
As for the so called camaro enthusiasts,they will stay away from this car when Gas hits $6.00 a gal.
I just paid $5.49 in Montauk a gal. and I will still buy a Camaro if it comes out.
The Only reallllllll enthusiasts are
the people that buy Ferrari and Lambos and they don't care about gas prices.
And ones that Buys a Camaro,Mustang GT or Challengers are not enthusiasts
because most have to have loans on their autos.........Most don't have cash and those are the ones that worry about oil prices......
There will be many BLACKOUTSSSSSSS in our homes....
You think I am Wrong??????
You're one of those people that went rushing to the store to buy a washboard and bucket just before Y2K when all of the electricity and cars were supposed to stop working, aren't you?
Yep I didrun out and got a washboard a week before T2K
But to me it does not take any brains that the VOLT will not be built.
Its only common sense(I guess you are lackiing some}
If there are 100,000 Volts on the road and a million of other Electric autos in the next 5 years.You really think there will be no Blackouts????The money you save on gas you will be paying with your electric bill if you home does not go black.....
As for the Camaro SS
It will not surpise me that they don't make the car
GM has no money and no one will loan them anything.
I will buy a Camaro SS if it does come out,but if it does they will flood the market place with them.
As for the so called camaro enthusiasts,they will stay away from this car when Gas hits $6.00 a gal.
I just paid $5.49 in Montauk a gal. and I will still buy a Camaro if it comes out.
The Only reallllllll enthusiasts are
the people that buy Ferrari and Lambos and they don't care about gas prices.
And ones that Buys a Camaro,Mustang GT or Challengers are not enthusiasts
because most have to have loans on their autos.........Most don't have cash and those are the ones that worry about oil prices......
07-04-2008, 10:24 PM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Originally Posted by JohnnyTuinals
There will be many BLACKOUTSSSSSSS in our homes....
You think I am Wrong??????
You're one of those people that went rushing to the store to buy a washboard and bucket just before Y2K when all of the electricity and cars were supposed to stop working, aren't you?
Yep I didrun out and got a washboard a week before T2K
But to me it does not take any brains that the VOLT will not be built.
Its only common sense(I guess you are lackiing some}
If there are 100,000 Volts on the road and a million of other Electric autos in the next 5 years.You really think there will be no Blackouts????The money you save on gas you will be paying with your electric bill if you home does not go black.....
As for the Camaro SS
It will not surpise me that they don't make the car
GM has no money and no one will loan them anything.
I will buy a Camaro SS if it does come out,but if it does they will flood the market place with them.
As for the so called camaro enthusiasts,they will stay away from this car when Gas hits $6.00 a gal.
I just paid $5.49 in Montauk a gal. and I will still buy a Camaro if it comes out.
The Only reallllllll enthusiasts are
the people that buy Ferrari and Lambos and they don't care about gas prices.
And ones that Buys a Camaro,Mustang GT or Challengers are not enthusiasts
because most have to have loans on their autos.........Most don't have cash and those are the ones that worry about oil prices......
There will be many BLACKOUTSSSSSSS in our homes....
You think I am Wrong??????
You're one of those people that went rushing to the store to buy a washboard and bucket just before Y2K when all of the electricity and cars were supposed to stop working, aren't you?
Yep I didrun out and got a washboard a week before T2K
But to me it does not take any brains that the VOLT will not be built.
Its only common sense(I guess you are lackiing some}
If there are 100,000 Volts on the road and a million of other Electric autos in the next 5 years.You really think there will be no Blackouts????The money you save on gas you will be paying with your electric bill if you home does not go black.....
As for the Camaro SS
It will not surpise me that they don't make the car
GM has no money and no one will loan them anything.
I will buy a Camaro SS if it does come out,but if it does they will flood the market place with them.
As for the so called camaro enthusiasts,they will stay away from this car when Gas hits $6.00 a gal.
I just paid $5.49 in Montauk a gal. and I will still buy a Camaro if it comes out.
The Only reallllllll enthusiasts are
the people that buy Ferrari and Lambos and they don't care about gas prices.
And ones that Buys a Camaro,Mustang GT or Challengers are not enthusiasts
because most have to have loans on their autos.........Most don't have cash and those are the ones that worry about oil prices......
Everyone ont his board is here for one of two reasons:
1. Their car has a problem and they need answers
2. They are an enthusiast
The majority of active posters absolutely fall into the enthusiast side. If you think the majority of people here just use their Camaro or other v8 for a daily driver you are dead wrong. Cheaper and more economical rides exist but we still own these cars. I am pretty sure thats the definition of enthusiast.
07-04-2008, 10:36 PM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Detroit , MI
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by JohnnyTuinals
The Only reallllllll enthusiasts are
the people that buy Ferrari and Lambos and they don't care about gas prices.
And ones that Buys a Camaro,Mustang GT or Challengers are not enthusiasts
because most have to have loans on their autos.........Most don't have cash and those are the ones that worry about oil prices......
The Only reallllllll enthusiasts are
the people that buy Ferrari and Lambos and they don't care about gas prices.
And ones that Buys a Camaro,Mustang GT or Challengers are not enthusiasts
because most have to have loans on their autos.........Most don't have cash and those are the ones that worry about oil prices......
07-04-2008, 11:25 PM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mahopac, NY
Posts: 369
that's what I was thinking.I think we need some big Camaro news soon...I getting tired of these "sky is falling" threads that continue to litter our boards.
HELLOOOOOO
YES, the economy sucks and gas prices suck, stocks are down, BLAH BLAH BLAH...some people act like it's the first time it's ever happened. Come on...it's all happend before and it will happen again. GM will still be here in 5 years and no we will NOT be paying $10/gal to fill up our Camaro's next year.
07-05-2008, 12:25 AM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
Crack is a dangerous drug. You might want to get into rehab.
Everyone ont his board is here for one of two reasons:
1. Their car has a problem and they need answers
2. They are an enthusiast
The majority of active posters absolutely fall into the enthusiast side. If you think the majority of people here just use their Camaro or other v8 for a daily driver you are dead wrong. Cheaper and more economical rides exist but we still own these cars. I am pretty sure thats the definition of enthusiast.
Everyone ont his board is here for one of two reasons:
1. Their car has a problem and they need answers
2. They are an enthusiast
The majority of active posters absolutely fall into the enthusiast side. If you think the majority of people here just use their Camaro or other v8 for a daily driver you are dead wrong. Cheaper and more economical rides exist but we still own these cars. I am pretty sure thats the definition of enthusiast.
But I can just imagine this timewaster laughing behind his 'puter, given that you've just dignified his post with a reply.
This guy thinks enthusiasts drive Lambos and Ferraris but let me tell you one thing dude, selling crack to the vulnerable doesn't make you a smart individual. Even if you can afford any of these vehicles, what you demonstrate is that you lack what every enthusiast has... a HEART!!!
07-05-2008, 12:59 AM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Yeah, this blackout thing is BS. There's plenty of electricity on the grid at night times. And GM will only be able to make a small number of Volts at first anyway.
10 years from now when 50% of the cars on the road are electric, it might be a problem. But that gives us plenty of time to upgrade the system. And no current energy system is sized to meet the demand of the future -- even if we stuck with gasoline, there would still have to be billions spent to upgrade refineries, build new stations and so on.
10 years from now when 50% of the cars on the road are electric, it might be a problem. But that gives us plenty of time to upgrade the system. And no current energy system is sized to meet the demand of the future -- even if we stuck with gasoline, there would still have to be billions spent to upgrade refineries, build new stations and so on.
07-05-2008, 07:51 AM
#44
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Houston Area
Posts: 524
07-05-2008, 07:59 PM
#45
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 107
Geeeeee I guess you people feel insulted lol
To me when gas hits $6-$7 next year the people that have money (enthusiasts}will be
able to afford the car without talking about gas prices.
I am sure that there will be many of us on this site that will afford the high gas prices.
But you will see 90% more next year will be looking at smaller cars then the camaro..
As for the VOLT the only way you will ever have enough enegy is to build Nuclear power plants.And the lovely Dems will not let us build them so we will still be useing oil for at least another 50 plus years.
If there was going to be any changes
Why would many airlines are still buying NEWER airlines if they are not going to use oil in the nearest future?
And as for GM and Ford
One or both of these companys will be out of business within the next few years.
Nobody in their right mind would buy a auto company unless its a investment or hedge firm.
And as for the economy,I think its doing great.
Only business is doing sucky is the steel industry.
Wish we can import more of Chinas cheap steel but with oil being as high as it is.
China is not shipping any steel anywhere in the world.
Ohhhh by the way I don't use crack,,,,I only use Quaaludes
To me when gas hits $6-$7 next year the people that have money (enthusiasts}will be
able to afford the car without talking about gas prices.
I am sure that there will be many of us on this site that will afford the high gas prices.
But you will see 90% more next year will be looking at smaller cars then the camaro..
As for the VOLT the only way you will ever have enough enegy is to build Nuclear power plants.And the lovely Dems will not let us build them so we will still be useing oil for at least another 50 plus years.
If there was going to be any changes
Why would many airlines are still buying NEWER airlines if they are not going to use oil in the nearest future?
And as for GM and Ford
One or both of these companys will be out of business within the next few years.
Nobody in their right mind would buy a auto company unless its a investment or hedge firm.
And as for the economy,I think its doing great.
Only business is doing sucky is the steel industry.
Wish we can import more of Chinas cheap steel but with oil being as high as it is.
China is not shipping any steel anywhere in the world.
Ohhhh by the way I don't use crack,,,,I only use Quaaludes