Nationalism
06-23-2008 | 05:57 PM
#16
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,308
From: Oshawa - Home of the 5th-gen
. I know where you stand, and hopefully you know where I stand 
.I think the OP is trying to see if other people feel the Camaro is not "American" enough??
(am I wrong? 
) ... considering much of the work on the car is/has not been in the U.S. So I think he was stretching that a little further and saying "what if it was being worked on in Japan?"..... my opinion on that would vary quite a bit from my opinion on the car being developed in Aussie, and built in Canada!
06-23-2008 | 11:16 PM
#18
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro:
So lets break up the unions and replace the entitlement with competition. Yes I know Union work is starting to improve... because now they actually fear competition from off shoring. I dont care who you are or where you live. If you feel I owe you as a customer, you need to be fired. If your company doesnt fire you as an employee I will fire them in the sense that I will cease employing them as a customer.
So lets break up the unions and replace the entitlement with competition. Yes I know Union work is starting to improve... because now they actually fear competition from off shoring. I dont care who you are or where you live. If you feel I owe you as a customer, you need to be fired. If your company doesnt fire you as an employee I will fire them in the sense that I will cease employing them as a customer.
Corporate cost cutting(materials) and oustsourcing subassemblies to the lowest bidders have made quality issues no surprise at all.
Generally, Union work is as good as transplants.
Some of the workers for both live in the same families, or friends, and some of the work for both is done in the same buildings.
And I've never heard any UAW workers indicate they feel anyone owes them anything, unless it was contractual.
I haven't really felt that pride about Camaro since it left the USA, but still like the car's performance and core mission of affordable high performance.
06-23-2008 | 11:24 PM
#19
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 801
From: New York
The wizards in Japan.
This is a rather unique situation for General Motors. For the most part, our prototype bodies are constructed using our internal expertise. However, this is not the case in Australia, because the size and throughput of our prototype body shop there was found to be inefficient for this type of project. As a consequence, in recent years we have contracted a specialist prototype body construction company from Hiroshima, Japan, — and they are very good at what they do.
Body shops are traditionally large, loud, and dirty with smoke and welding sparks flying in all directions and workers with dirty faces wielding massive machines. Production body shops also feature large numbers of robots weaving in and out of the pressed panels, performing the same welding tasks hundreds of times per day.
In contrast, the Japanese prototype shop is a clean environment that is a fusion of old and new processes. There are a disproportionate number of computer screens to the actual trade workers. There are very few robots, and the tradesmen (some would call them craftsmen) are all clad in white cotton uniforms, regardless if they are sitting at a computer or hand working the metal parts on the shop floor. There are still some very large presses; I saw one that was a 1,500-tonner. That's the biggest hammer you are likely to come across, but there are also some very precise machining centers and laser cutters. Perhaps the biggest contrast is the fact that the managing director of the company is also the head tradesman and, if there is a big problem, he is to be found down on the shop floor with a hammer or a file, providing the solutions. He wears the same white uniform as everyone else.
In the short time I was in Japan, there was one particular situation I saw that gave me great pride and, indeed, I believe augers particularly well for the Camaro project. A group of Japanese craftsmen in white cotton gloves with blue fluorescent lamps were pouring over some recently pressed Camaro hoods. They had treated the metal surface with a light oil film, and they were marking any slight imperfections with a blue pen as they positioned their eyes right down to the surface of the metal. They also had the GM design engineer and the manufacturing quality engineer right there with them as they discussed small changes to the design of the die to make sure the parts would be perfectly repeatable in production. This meticulous hands-on approach is exactly what will make the difference later in the program. I loved it!
http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro/insi...y/?id=cid00013
This is a rather unique situation for General Motors. For the most part, our prototype bodies are constructed using our internal expertise. However, this is not the case in Australia, because the size and throughput of our prototype body shop there was found to be inefficient for this type of project. As a consequence, in recent years we have contracted a specialist prototype body construction company from Hiroshima, Japan, — and they are very good at what they do.
Body shops are traditionally large, loud, and dirty with smoke and welding sparks flying in all directions and workers with dirty faces wielding massive machines. Production body shops also feature large numbers of robots weaving in and out of the pressed panels, performing the same welding tasks hundreds of times per day.
In contrast, the Japanese prototype shop is a clean environment that is a fusion of old and new processes. There are a disproportionate number of computer screens to the actual trade workers. There are very few robots, and the tradesmen (some would call them craftsmen) are all clad in white cotton uniforms, regardless if they are sitting at a computer or hand working the metal parts on the shop floor. There are still some very large presses; I saw one that was a 1,500-tonner. That's the biggest hammer you are likely to come across, but there are also some very precise machining centers and laser cutters. Perhaps the biggest contrast is the fact that the managing director of the company is also the head tradesman and, if there is a big problem, he is to be found down on the shop floor with a hammer or a file, providing the solutions. He wears the same white uniform as everyone else.
In the short time I was in Japan, there was one particular situation I saw that gave me great pride and, indeed, I believe augers particularly well for the Camaro project. A group of Japanese craftsmen in white cotton gloves with blue fluorescent lamps were pouring over some recently pressed Camaro hoods. They had treated the metal surface with a light oil film, and they were marking any slight imperfections with a blue pen as they positioned their eyes right down to the surface of the metal. They also had the GM design engineer and the manufacturing quality engineer right there with them as they discussed small changes to the design of the die to make sure the parts would be perfectly repeatable in production. This meticulous hands-on approach is exactly what will make the difference later in the program. I loved it!
http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro/insi...y/?id=cid00013
I don't hate Japanese people/Asians. I don't denounce them for existing. What I dislike is our gov't making it so easy for them to sell their crap here, an likewise making it a pain in the *** for our OWN companies to do so. But if they have to be in charge of the final once-over of the cars' surfaces, please; be my guest - just do a good job.
06-23-2008 | 11:37 PM
#20
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Body shops I've seen here haven't been like that for a while, even oil discharged from air tools is filtered out, even open cans of cleaners etc are kept from paint areas, as vapors can cause imperfections in paint.
Our final inspection on the line has dozens of fluorescent lights, and the sheet metal is looked at in the same manner, and marked for repair or buffing etc.
I still don't see a major advantage.
Our final inspection on the line has dozens of fluorescent lights, and the sheet metal is looked at in the same manner, and marked for repair or buffing etc.
I still don't see a major advantage.
06-24-2008 | 12:00 AM
#21
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Posts: 2,428
06-24-2008 | 06:28 AM
#24
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 881
From: Jacksonville Florida
So lets break up the unions and replace the entitlement with competition. Yes I know Union work is starting to improve... because now they actually fear competition from off shoring. I dont care who you are or where you live. If you feel I owe you as a customer, you need to be fired. If your company doesnt fire you as an employee I will fire them in the sense that I will cease employing them as a customer.
*CJ stands and applauds*
Well stated.
06-24-2008 | 07:18 PM
#25
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,802
From: Annapolis MD
I agree with you the work from UAW companies is much improved, BUT I attribute that to a renewed commitment to quality on a corporate level, b/c of competition.
Corporate cost cutting(materials) and oustsourcing subassemblies to the lowest bidders have made quality issues no surprise at all.
Generally, Union work is as good as transplants.
Some of the workers for both live in the same families, or friends, and some of the work for both is done in the same buildings.
And I've never heard any UAW workers indicate they feel anyone owes them anything, unless it was contractual..
Corporate cost cutting(materials) and oustsourcing subassemblies to the lowest bidders have made quality issues no surprise at all.
Generally, Union work is as good as transplants.
Some of the workers for both live in the same families, or friends, and some of the work for both is done in the same buildings.
And I've never heard any UAW workers indicate they feel anyone owes them anything, unless it was contractual.
.employee - who feels the company owes them
union - who is supposed to be a negotiator to get the employee a better contract
company/employer - who has to deal with this and pass the cost onto....
MY WALLET
Corporate has improved as a result of competition. That still doesnt explain how workmanship has improved because corporate improvements the union is in place to fight. I think its two fold. Competition from other countries, as well as and in my opinon the immediate theat to "their job" which the union cant protect against.
I like American products American made like my Craftsman. But when I feel people who are producing something because they feel they deserve the paycheck regaurdless of whats produced. I will go anywhere else.
TY! Im certainly not anti US products, but if someone feels getting my money via their employer is a foregone conclusion I will weigh my options.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 06-24-2008 at 07:24 PM.
06-25-2008 | 12:22 AM
#26
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Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Originally Posted by 5thgen69camaro:
The problem is its all contractual... The union idealioligy seems to be the $'s come from the company/employer. Since the employer is a cash machine lets with draw as much as possible with as little input as possible. Unfortunatly if you follow the money you can find the money doesnt start from the company/employer.
The problem is its all contractual... The union idealioligy seems to be the $'s come from the company/employer. Since the employer is a cash machine lets with draw as much as possible with as little input as possible. Unfortunatly if you follow the money you can find the money doesnt start from the company/employer.
In fact, there is a sense of , "build'em like you want to buy'em"...
The best you can, given the materials and designs, and time constraints.
It seems people forget that a lot of jobs on assembly only allow 2 minutes or less!...you don't get time to do it twice.
Everyone would love to get every vehicle perfect, but company's decide how good is good enough, or how much of a percentage of defects are acceptable vs total number of prduced...NOT the UAW.
What we have seen is that we have made compromises per company's pleas to become more competitive, and seen them still raise selling prices as much as cost saving compromise.
employee - who feels the company owes them
union - who is supposed to be a negotiator to get the employee a better contract
company/employer - who has to deal with this and pass the cost onto....
MY WALLET
MY WALLET
Corporate has improved as a result of competition. That still doesnt explain how workmanship has improved because corporate improvements the union is in place to fight. I think its two fold. Competition from other countries, as well as and in my opinon the immediate theat to "their job" which the union cant protect against.
What "improvements" would a Union want to fight??Improvements, generally mean, more productivity with less strain, injuries...better equipment, better materials, improved processing....All win/wins for the company and employees.
(PS: some of our equipment is over 30years old!
)Outsourcing is NOT and improvement, more a liability to quality and most times, productivity...it's saving grace is labor costs, and only labor costs.
I like American products American made like my Craftsman. But when I feel people who are producing something because they feel they deserve the paycheck regaurdless of whats produced. I will go anywhere else.
Make sure the quality you speak of is only workmanship, before you blame the worker.
Sorry about any Hijacking, but being from a UAW shop, some comments are personal.
I have no problem with Japan, I've worked with some of the finest engineers you'll meet, but I still don't automatically consider anything Japan touches as something "magical"...we have just as much talent here, just maybe not as many cleanroom environments.
Last edited by 90rocz; 06-25-2008 at 12:28 AM.
06-25-2008 | 06:34 AM
#27
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 881
From: Jacksonville Florida
In answer to the thread, the answer is I would NOT be happy with it. The ONLY product I willingly choose Japanese over American is motorcycles.
I ride a Hayabusa. The reasons are, Harleys are WAY over rated, and Way over priced.
Second, I'm not the Harley type. I want power and performance and let's face it, nobody delivers that on 2 wheels like the Japanese. Nothing made by any country in the world can hold a candle to the Busa. (except maybe the ZX-14 which is also Japanese).
But I want my cars and especially my Camaro to be as American as possible.
I ride a Hayabusa. The reasons are, Harleys are WAY over rated, and Way over priced.
Second, I'm not the Harley type. I want power and performance and let's face it, nobody delivers that on 2 wheels like the Japanese. Nothing made by any country in the world can hold a candle to the Busa. (except maybe the ZX-14 which is also Japanese).
But I want my cars and especially my Camaro to be as American as possible.
06-25-2008 | 12:23 PM
#29
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,808
From: FL/MI
The bottom line is that the 5th generation Camaro is 100% Camaro. It seems when there is a lull in spyshots or winkie info that some folks gotta build strawmen to joust with.
Work is being done in Australia... OK... under the direction of North Americans who undertsand the car, the heritage, the market. Going to Australia allows folks that have their feet deep in rear wheel drive cars to be involved. The climate of business in Australia has not been drawn away from rear wheel drive cars as it has been here. RWD has remained on the radar there without interruption.
The airways have consistantly been frequently flown by home based folks. The Camaro is not a reskin or rush to market affair at all. There is also, perhaps, some wisdom to insulate the Camaro from internal politics which might be more hard to accomplish were it all "right down the street" so to speak.
Building the car in an area of Canada that has proven they can execute a top notch product is of no issue to me. None whatsoever.
There is no lack of hotdogs, apple pie, or Chevrolet in this coming car.
Any thoughts that this isn't a 100% "American" offering are specious. It seems the suggestion is that it isn't American at all.. I respectfully respond "Bull^&%^" to that.
If anyone is offering "grips" for sale or rent, please step in here quickly. Some folks are truly in need. There is a business opportunity here.
I direct anyone interested to the North American content listed on the Monroney sticker on GM cars if there's any question as to who is interested and dedicated to the local economy.
Work is being done in Australia... OK... under the direction of North Americans who undertsand the car, the heritage, the market. Going to Australia allows folks that have their feet deep in rear wheel drive cars to be involved. The climate of business in Australia has not been drawn away from rear wheel drive cars as it has been here. RWD has remained on the radar there without interruption.
The airways have consistantly been frequently flown by home based folks. The Camaro is not a reskin or rush to market affair at all. There is also, perhaps, some wisdom to insulate the Camaro from internal politics which might be more hard to accomplish were it all "right down the street" so to speak.
Building the car in an area of Canada that has proven they can execute a top notch product is of no issue to me. None whatsoever.
There is no lack of hotdogs, apple pie, or Chevrolet in this coming car.
Any thoughts that this isn't a 100% "American" offering are specious. It seems the suggestion is that it isn't American at all.. I respectfully respond "Bull^&%^" to that.
If anyone is offering "grips" for sale or rent, please step in here quickly. Some folks are truly in need. There is a business opportunity here.
I direct anyone interested to the North American content listed on the Monroney sticker on GM cars if there's any question as to who is interested and dedicated to the local economy.
Last edited by 1fastdog; 06-25-2008 at 02:45 PM.
06-26-2008 | 01:21 AM
#30
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,802
From: Annapolis MD
After responding to this very quote twice already each responce equally as long, hitting the submit button damned near brought me to tears when I was faced with a login prompt and no way to recover. So tonight I decided to use notepad...
What "improvements" would a Union want to fight??
Improvements, generally mean, more productivity with less strain, injuries...better equipment, better materials, improved processing....All win/wins for the company and employees.
(PS: some of our equipment is over 30years old!)
Outsourcing is NOT and improvement, more a liability to quality and most times, productivity...it's saving grace is labor costs, and only labor costs.
1st and most effective improvement a Union can do is remove itself from existance between the company and the worker. Unions create artificial markets for worker. Mostly they increase salaries but on occasion they decrease. This the case once when one union decided not to give the full pay increase to workers all at once as they wanted to be seen steadily increasing workers pay. Paying workers an artificially inflated salary, makes offshoring that much more appealing.
2nd Make firing easier for companies - short of removing themselves one of the biggest hinderances unions have is standing in the way of the companies right to fire you such as the case of the Teachers Unions. If you cant fire someone, what incentive at all do they have to do a good job. Especially, when the good pay should be linked to the good job, piece work, or results. Not the result of Union negotiations, under threat of being shut down.
3rd Stop the entitled walk outs - The one bargaining chip the Unions have of walking out bitting the hand that feeds if the bowl is not full enough. The workers can only be replaced for certain reasons for the walkout. The parasitic Unions can by design bring production to a halt.
4th Crack down on workers - the my job ends here policy, which exists in unions but also sometimes outside them is absoloutely sickening.
and BTW, as far as what IS and IS NOT an improvment. You certainly dont speak for me. Nor is it so because it came from you. Outsourcing to our Canadian friends in Oshwa who have a great quality reputation, certainly IS an improvment. Having The Platform outsourced to our Austrailian friends who never abandoned the RWD platform IS an improvement. You telling me the UAWs improving only reinforces my already good image of GM, not the Union that has been forced to act like less of a Union when threat of outsource worker cometition arose that the Union was supposed to eliminate. What good is walking out and shutting down the factory, if you can be replaced by a factory in another country. Thats more like quitting on a massive scale. If outsourcing accomplishes that, then that too IS an improvement to me. How you attributed my knowlege at 31 of Unions today as they are now to a movie I never heard of 50 years ago is beyond me.
obviously you assumed I limited my comments to the worker. In the case of certain Unions where workers are lax either because of a my job ends here unwritten policy, or as a result of knowlege any retaliation, then that overinflated salary for that entitled worker either under producing or not producing is passed onto the customer. But more than that, poorly engineered and badly managed products are also just as bad. I point to the 4th gen but you may disagree. Though the workmanship was great in that case the engineering was not in my opinon.
Ive never had a problem with Japan. I do admit if I hear Korean or possibly Chineese built I would be nervous.
As many others have ellequently stated, GM is a home based company. The profits return home. GM employing workers throughout the US and Canada is above and beyond.
What "improvements" would a Union want to fight??Improvements, generally mean, more productivity with less strain, injuries...better equipment, better materials, improved processing....All win/wins for the company and employees.
(PS: some of our equipment is over 30years old!
)Outsourcing is NOT and improvement, more a liability to quality and most times, productivity...it's saving grace is labor costs, and only labor costs.
1st and most effective improvement a Union can do is remove itself from existance between the company and the worker. Unions create artificial markets for worker. Mostly they increase salaries but on occasion they decrease. This the case once when one union decided not to give the full pay increase to workers all at once as they wanted to be seen steadily increasing workers pay. Paying workers an artificially inflated salary, makes offshoring that much more appealing.
2nd Make firing easier for companies - short of removing themselves one of the biggest hinderances unions have is standing in the way of the companies right to fire you such as the case of the Teachers Unions. If you cant fire someone, what incentive at all do they have to do a good job. Especially, when the good pay should be linked to the good job, piece work, or results. Not the result of Union negotiations, under threat of being shut down.
3rd Stop the entitled walk outs - The one bargaining chip the Unions have of walking out bitting the hand that feeds if the bowl is not full enough. The workers can only be replaced for certain reasons for the walkout. The parasitic Unions can by design bring production to a halt.
4th Crack down on workers - the my job ends here policy, which exists in unions but also sometimes outside them is absoloutely sickening.
and BTW, as far as what IS and IS NOT an improvment. You certainly dont speak for me. Nor is it so because it came from you. Outsourcing to our Canadian friends in Oshwa who have a great quality reputation, certainly IS an improvment. Having The Platform outsourced to our Austrailian friends who never abandoned the RWD platform IS an improvement. You telling me the UAWs improving only reinforces my already good image of GM, not the Union that has been forced to act like less of a Union when threat of outsource worker cometition arose that the Union was supposed to eliminate. What good is walking out and shutting down the factory, if you can be replaced by a factory in another country. Thats more like quitting on a massive scale. If outsourcing accomplishes that, then that too IS an improvement to me. How you attributed my knowlege at 31 of Unions today as they are now to a movie I never heard of 50 years ago is beyond me.
As many others have ellequently stated, GM is a home based company. The profits return home. GM employing workers throughout the US and Canada is above and beyond.
Last edited by 5thgen69camaro; 06-26-2008 at 02:15 AM.