I really have no positive/negative stance on Unions. 90% of my working family is in one, and they in no way resemble what we hear and read about the automotive unions...but the UAW seems to **** me off more often then not, so

Are they payed too much? Or is the offshore workers' salaries that are much lower than ours to begin with? This global economy is not an equal playing field (standards of living; and expected income to maintain it are totally different among countries)...and you can't blame the Unions for that. That's scapegoating.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that I Did think they get payed too much (just probably not as much as most everyone on here thinks.) Until the new contract was signed.

That's the point of having a Union. Being able to make a stand when your employer's being unfair.

But I think this 'feature' of Unions should be limited -- not totally taken away. They use it too often, and to easily. There should be repercussions (moderate fines/lack of pay, etc) that make Union leaders weigh the potential results of a strike against the risk. Obviously anything in place right now isn't enough.

None of that has anything to do with Unions.......quality, RWD, etc.
Especially the RWD part...you think Unions had anything to do with GM's RWD product planning?

And outsourcing to a Canadian Union instead of letting our own Union's build stuff is an improvement to you why??

So you're completely ignoring the Union's willingness (however difficult) to cooperate and realize what you stated...Completely ignoring the fact that their signature is on the contract, too; not just GM's.

Do you hate American workers?

 

Not really. Both are true in my opinion. And BTW Too much pay is more than what the market is. Not what I decide.

Sounds like I agree with you. They did... until they were forced to act a little less like a Union and compete.

exactly my point. To shut things down when the Union decides on their terms what unfair is.

Well you and I seem to agree with the problem just differ on ideas of soloution. Unions are added beaurocracy. They dont produce anything. A fourth Beaurocratic independent structure that would need to be maintained and that dosent produce anything either would have to be put in place to monitor the broken one in place. These things arent free. Workers pay Union dues. Tack on a Union monitoring fee if you want or add it to the Union fee but the money trail always leads back to the customer as a source.


If you go back to look

I was responding to this quote

"Outsourcing is NOT and improvement, more a liability to quality and most times, productivity...it's saving grace is labor costs, and only labor costs."


Absoloutely. It is that competition that in turn forces entities like our Unions to be less socialistic and entitled and more competitive. I would love more produced here in the US.

Nope didnt ignore that at all. I was trying to point out that was part of the problem.


Not in the least! What I hate is taking me for granted. Especially when it regaurds to someone who takes me and my cash for granted.

What I think got missed here was I have a 40" craftsman made in america tool box that hardly has a tool in it that isnt made in America that isnt a special tool or bought in a rush. My Heckler and Koch is made in Alabama. My Cutco knives from New York. I think the GM quality has vastly improved recently. From top CEO Rick Wagoner and Bob Lutz, to Design to Unions that are now forced to be less of a problem.

I am a Nationalist to a degree. I hate seeing Socialist China who doesnt respect any intelectual rights, Throw together a truck with a Chevy front and the sides of a Nissan and put a Chineese logo on it.

 

THAT's my biggest beef with unions. "employer's being unfair"? IT'S THEIR COMPANY!!! If you as an EMPLOYEE feel it is unfair you are free to leave and pursue employment elsewhere. Or better yet, go start your own "fair" company.
Employment should be in the power of the EMPLOYER and NOT the employee.
Imagine you hire someone to cut your lawn. They do a crappy job and take 4 times as long to do it as someone who is motivated to do. AND they charge more. BUT imagine that you can't fire them because of some stupid law. Meanwhile all you neighbors are getting thier lawns cut quicker, and cheaper. Sucks don't it?

 

Perfectly said!!!

You ever ask a union guy to do something... "Sorry not my job" or "you'll have to put in a request with my sup". Ya that works out great for production.

They served a purpose when guys were dying in coal mines. Now they bargain for breaks and an extra .5%. Why would you as a worker pay someone for that???

 

This is exactly how I feel about a union of any kind. No matter what contract or paper you have signed, the EMPLOYEE has the right to terminate ANY employment, and thus if thinks its unfair. LEAVE. You as an employee have NO right to dictate how a corporation or even a mom and pop shop is run unless you are personally financially responsible for the business itself.

The federal government has minimum regulations on what fair compensation is. Yes, I know minimum wage is a joke, BUT as a voter you have a say and can change that.

PS - I feel the same for those who think this country is horrible, then LEAVE nothing is keeping you here. Go check out other countries around the world and find one that works for you and IMMIGRATE there. I like the USA just the way it is now and exercise my rights whenever possible.

 

Hey, I didn't say it was a fair practice anymore...just that it's one of the fundamental points of a Union. They were created, in large part, to stand up to unfair and abusive employers. What's stopping employers from regressing into those practices again if this feature of Unions was taken away? (question = Devil's advocate)

Thing is, in MOST Unions, striking has become a big stick that isn't used...A scare tactic, and no more...you don't hear about all the Countries Union's constantly striking like we keep watching the UAW do. That's why I'm not against leaving them this (I'm loath to call it a 'right'). I just believe it's usage should be more limted.

It seems we agree about more than I thought.

 

There are several reasons I dislike unions, one of the biggest being that they forget this: employees work for the company...NOT the UAW. It seems like they all think that the company is holding them back from making money.

Today for example: We have a new "regime" as they call it, because they just held elections. One of the new committeemen during lunch said to a group of Maint. Leaders (salary/non-rep) "How is this place running with you guys in here...oh thats right, we don't need you guys to run this place" Now granted...he does a lot of that "chest-thumping" but it seems like half of them feel like they are being screwed.

 

Great, so we went from talking about "nationalism", to union bashing .

I know, there's just no changing some peoples' opinions .



FWIW, I'm a union worker, I "support" (in spirit) my local CAW folk, but I am not really "pro"-union, or "anti"-union. I think they have/had their place in the workplace. I think it's pretty ignorant to paint all union workers with the same brush, and make bold statements like "I hate unions and what they've done to this country". I don't agree that unions are as big a problem as some make them out to be, but I don't believe they haven't had a hand in things either.

..... basically what I'm trying to say is, even though I'm a union member (not CAW), and I certainly enjoy MANY benefits that my brotherhood of the past negotiated for our membership, I'm actually a bit of a fence-sitter! I sometimes shake my head at some of the "issues" people in/of the union raise, however, this does NOT mean that I am AGAINST unions, because I also shake my head at management, and the stunts that they like to pull too .

BUT, none of this really has anything to do with where the Camaro is being designed or built, does it??

 

Not unless Japan went Union....

I think it's great that a lot of different countries, all with their own expertise, are involved in helping to make the Camaro the best it can be! It'll only have that much more momentum behind it as far as quality, and performance.

 

Very true!

I'm really anticipating the quality of the new Camaro. Maybe it seems like putting all of the eggs in one (or two?) basket(s), but I think the new Malibu and Camaro are a couple important "turn-around" cars for GM. Their quality has slid for the last couple decades, and now within the last ~couple/few years, they've been starting to change things. However, I don't think the buying public are fully convinced yet. But the new Malibu has been turning heads, and getting a lot of attention ... positive attention! I REALLY hope that the Camaro makes the same type of impact and impression on the automotive industry as a whole (critics and buyers). GM needs it!

And if it took the assistance of some Japanese bodymen to get the stamping right for the Camaro's sheet-metal, then so be it . I'm sure the car is going to turn out beautifully .

 

That's easy, market competition. Back when unions were formed (and rightfully so) companies were monopolies. If you were a coal miner, you didn't have a lot of choices of who you would work for. Or steel workers. But competition keeps companies "honest". Putting out a quality product at an affordable price will equal success nearly every time. Paying unions their incredibly high "ransoms" (because they hijack productivity) makes it nearly impossible to compete against non union competition. Why do you think the road is infested with Nissans, Toyotas, Hondas ect.? Those companies rose to power during the 70's when shoddy workmanship and poor design was hamstringing American automobiles. Sure the corporations themselves need to take a part of the blame. The plain and simple fact is unions have WAY outlived thier usefullness and need to go. And YES, the Camaro is being built in Canada because of the fact that American unions make it way to expensive to produce the car here.
So this DOES revolve around unions. They are the major reason American companies had to outsource in the first place.