Also since we have so many weekend road racers in here. Tell me do you leave your cars 100% stock? No modifications at all?

 

Yes but the point is there are many ways to make it better.

I think everyone agrees that the car is "hot" right now, but it can be better without stepping on any of the current buyers' toes.

Will the typical Camaro buyer today miss the feeling of understeer?
Would the typical Camaro buyer of today complain about more direct steering input?
Would today's Camaro buyer complain about lighter weight and the side effect of better fuel economy?

And really, I'm not a moderator or anything but can we all lighten up on the personal attacks? I'd rather not see another one closed.

 

My point is even a dog gets tired of barking at itself in the mirror.

 

Really though, its not personal at all. I'm just defending the car. I was so upset when the car was canceled in 2002. To have it come back in the way it has being loved by the public again and being a glaring better example than the last generation. It sucks to come here and see the same weight BS in a thread announcing the return of the Z28. In stead this great news gets sucked into the weight/handling complaint thread. Can't you just keep that to one thread?

 

That's where we don't agree. No Camaro should be compared to a BMW or Audi. Yes they're great cars (we've owned one of each), however their performance (i.e. German engineering ) comes at a price. Compare the Cadillac CTS series with them if you will; however a Chevy Camaro? Sorry, but to me that's apples and oranges. Camaro should be less expensive and have less sophisticated construction/materials.

 

Being that we have yet to see exactly what Camaro Z/28 will have, shouldn't we wait to comment on how to make it better?

While I'll agree that commenting on Camaro SS is one thing, however this thread is supposed to be about a different car altogether... hopefully.

 

As a potential Z/28 buyer, I'd want the car I purchase to be pretty darn near perfect and not have to modify it just to make it perform like it should.

 

As it should but I want to know what the road race guys do. I have been holding out for news of a Z28. I had a gut feeling it would still happen.

The 2010 SS is rated at .87G in the skidpad. There is no reason to think GM won't improve on that for the Z28. I believe someone even mentioned on Camaro5 that Pedders has been in talks with GM on the Z28 since April. That car will handle and feel great to the average driver. Even Z284Ever said the SS feels good. Heavy but good. We probably won't change anything on our cars. I just want to know if the RR's are complaining about parts that will be changed out and improved upon anyway.

 

I have mixed feelings about this. My son has owned SN95 Mustangs, a BMW M3 and now has an Audi A4 Quattro. All great cars, however all too small for my tastes when it comes to the cabin size and layout. While I have no issue with a smaller higher reving V8, the supercharger makes sense for what GM is pushing today. The LS7 is a great engine, however I'd imagine that the reason they went to a supercharged V8 is because of cost/durability.

Furthermore, any hope that a future "Camaro" will weigh 3400lbs is probably nothing more than a pipe dream. To get there we'd either need to severely downsize it (we're talking Cobalt sized now), or use exotic materials which would increase its price substantially. While a RWD 400hp Cobalt sized car does sound "fun", it certainly is no "Camaro".

 

In that case I agree 100%. Before we criticize the Z/28, I'd like to see what it has/doesn't have and how it performs/doesn't perform. If some here have inside information they can't share with all of us, how can they expect there to be a productive unbiased discussion when we don't have all the information?

I don't care about speculation, I'm an engineer... I want FACTS!

 

Sure, I've modified my cars.

Need more power............ not a problem. Optimizing caster/camber/toe for the type of track you are running........... not a big deal. Struts/springs/tires............ easy to do.

What is not easy to do, is take out weight. Do I want to take my $45K car, and pull out all of the "not necessary" stuff, to make it lighter?? Do I want to throw out the rear seat, and sound insullation?? Do I need to have new parts built/engineered, in aluminum, to make the suspension react faster?? Do I have to reengineer a steering geometry??

The answer to all of the above, is no. I have accepted a pony/muscle/sporty coupe, around 3500lbs. I have a big problem with one over 3800lbs. Get over 4000lbs, and I can buy many a sedan that is lighter. That is a big problem.

Our having a problem with the weight of the car, or the suspension tuning of the car, does not mean we don't like the car. Far from it. We just think that small changes can make a huge difference, and can widen the appeal of the car. This way, when all of the "have to haves," have theirs, there is enough audience to keep the car going. This includes appealing to............. gasp............ women.

 

What class and what series specifically would you like to know about?

In the SCCA Solo Stock classes you are allowed the following:

R comps on stock sized wheels
aftermarket shocks (with some limitations)
any brake pad / fluid
any cat back exhaust
any front bar
any alignment settings using factory hardware

That's it. So yeah, it may not be 100% stock but it is damn close. None of the modifications put forth here by some are legal.


Stock classes are the most popular autocross classes. Why? For the same reasons I desperately want to run a car there.

It is because the Street Prepared (and higher) tire, maintenance and seemingly endless upgrade costs get old, as does the actual wrenching. Racers want to race, not waste time inflating their internet message board signatures.


The rules are the same in SCCA Time Trials for Solo derived cars. NASA autocrosses and time trials are a bit different because they use a points based system

 

No Jeff, you're not understanding me. Let me explain.

Do you think that the typical BMW buyer understands that their car has damned near perfect steering, above average braking, sillky smooth revving engine and a very tossable and yet pretty unflappable chassis tune? Probably not. The the people that CAN appreciate that sort of thing are attracted to those cars and buy them. Those particular people are sometimes opinion makers in their social circles. Also, most magazines love that stuff and cars like that get great reviews.

So.....let's say your buddy/cousin/brother-in-law, Rodney, who everyone knows is a car guy, raves about his 335i. Later you read, or hear about, the great reviews in C&D/R&T/MT and eventhough you can't tell the difference between shift **** or door ****, you are pretty well convinced this is a great car. A car worth the money and worthy of consideration and perhaps even purchase.

 

Educate me on how skidpad grip equates to handling.

Then explain to me how changing parts will somehow make that terribly inconvenient and pesky issue of simple grade school physics disappear for those racers.

 

I'd like you to try something. Sit in a new Audi S5, a new BMW 3 coupe and new Camaro. Then come back and tell us which one feels roomier. I really think you'll be shocked.