Wow, you're quoting me from last year! Buy a Genesis coupe? Please, don't be ridiculous Scott.

But my 5th gen concerns are both valid and fair. For me, it is larger than I had hoped, heavier than I had hoped, it's interior is much less appealing than hoped and any notion of ever getting my coveted Z/28 are pretty much gone. Of course I'll drive one first chance I get and of course I want it to succeed wildly--- but it just plain doesn't hit my personal bullseye. I can't be any more honest and fair than that.

One more thing to set the record straight....

Why in the world would I want to influence people to NOT buy this car? If this one flops, that's pretty much it for the Camaro brand. So whether this particular car pushes all of my personal buttons or not - I still want people to buy it and buy it large numbers. I want GM management to be impressed enough with it's sales numbers and positive buzz, to put serious consideration of the next gen car on the radar screen. In fact, FYI, two people last week asked me if they should buy the Challenger or Camaro. I recommended the Camaro to them. So, eat your words Scotty.

 

You know what? Don't be a d!ck. You have no idea who I might have had conversations with on this. In fact, I'm sure you'd be shocked.

 

I share Z284ever's sentiments on the weight and interior. This is why I will not be buying one.

I've seen it in person, sat in it, and was disappointed.

I really do hope this car succeeds though. Who cares what the minority say, imo. Most people like it, so that's all that matters.

 

It may be heavier than you wanted. But I do think a fair evaluation will show that it's not heavier than other cars of similar configuration, HP, and TQ, once you account for the differences. I.e., take a Mustang and add 100hp and tq and an IRS tough enough to survive a few runs down the dragstrip, and if it doesn't gain 300 pounds, it's close.

Take an M3 and change some of the expensive aluminum to steel and replace the little 4.0 with a high torque turbo 6 or N/A V8, and see what you get (hint: take a look at the weight of the 335d).

Interior style? That's personal preference and all comments are fair.

 

It's not bad looking in person, but it is pretty bland. It looks like a derivitive of the G35 coupe that's been out for years.

Most of the articles I've seen so far puts the V6 ahead of the Camaro in acceleration, so I'm not too surprised about the power/weight thing.

 

I like the looks of the Genesis Coupe. Edmunds had a nice writeup on the issues with the V6 and fuel cutoff after hitting redline. Supposedly, Hyundai was working on that, and the Edmunds retest with different firmware was quicker. Who knows what program the production models may have, however. One suspects that maybe Hyundai saved a few pounds with a lightweight diff.

 

It wouldn't, as has been discussed here a few times, a well designed IRS doesn't add a substantial amount of weight (25-50 pounds IIRC - the Terminator IRS is a different story because its a square peg trying to fit in a round hole).

The Mustangs chassis is also a dedicated platform and designed as it sits currently to handle in excess of 600 horsepower (so no extra sheet metal is needed, for safety pundits it also has a 5 star rating in coupe and convertible form) nor does it slavishly follow a showcar (the S-197 show cars were built off of an exsisting S-197 chassis rather than the other way around).

IRS aside, brakes and transmission would add some heft, but not much (I havn't read how much the GT500 brakes add in weight, but I dont think it would be more than 30 or 40 pounds if that much and going from an M5 to M6 is also a negligable amount of weight).

Now for people citing the GT500 as proof that a 400 HP Mustang will be OMFG heavy, its portly for one reason, the 5.4 4v mill and associated S/C plumbing, thats it, there is no real extra bracing in the chassis (IIRC it uses the front k-member struts from the vert - measely pinched tube things)

As for future Mustangs with the coyote 5.0 (which is said to be lighter than the current mod motors - I'm guessing in relation to the all alu 4.6 3v) I dont think there is gonna be a monster weight gain, maybe in a stretch it might weigh the same as a V6 F5 in GT form - but that'd probalby have to include the IRS, M6, and upgraded brakes, otherwise if Ford just goes with a live axle, M5 and sticks with the SOP with the brakes (meaning weight savings take precedence over stoping power) and only puts the coyote engine in, the '11 Mustang may weigh the same as the current car (if not a few pounds lighter based on current 5.0 gossip).

 

I've seen that claimed. I've also seen much higher numbers claimed. I don't believe the 25-50 pounds number, unless, perhaps, you're talking about all aluminum suspension parts and a simple IRS.

The tested weight of the old GT500 was about 350 pounds more than the tested weight of the 2009 GTs. The mfr's number of the 2010 model GT500 is 400 pounds more than the mfr number of the 2010 GT and 350 more than the tested weight of 2010 GTs (probably heavier due to upgrades). Let's use 350.

Normally the difference between Al and Fe blocks is more like 100 pounds. Add a little more for the 5.4 versus 4.6. Superchargers and plumbing are what, maybe 50 pounds? Whatever the case, the SC and Fe block do not add 350 pounds.


We'll see. The new 370Z was lighter until it was put on the scales

And the new 5.0 will still have less torque than the Camaro 6.2.

A pleasant surprise on the Camaro is how the as-tested weights actually came in the same as the preliminary weights. On many cars recently, the car gains 100 pounds or more from preliminary to scales used by magazines.

 

[QUOTE=teal98;5920113]I've seen that claimed. I've also seen much higher numbers claimed. I don't believe the 25-50 pounds number, unless, perhaps, you're talking about all aluminum suspension parts and a simple IRS.[quote]
It'll be interesting to see what the F5 IRS to SRA swaps will yield in weight difference?

[quote]The tested weight of the old GT500 was about 350 pounds more than the tested weight of the 2009 GTs. The mfr's number of the 2010 model GT500 is 400 pounds more than the mfr number of the 2010 GT and 350 more than the tested weight of 2010 GTs (probably heavier due to upgrades). Let's use 350.

Normally the difference between Al and Fe blocks is more like 100 pounds. Add a little more for the 5.4 versus 4.6. Superchargers and plumbing are what, maybe 50 pounds? Whatever the case, the SC and Fe block do not add 350 pounds.[/qoute]

The GT500 uses the NVH block which is around 110 pounds heavier (the 3v 4.6 block checks in at 85 pounds) and the 4v heads are around 60 pounds heavier than the 3v heads. Granted its the Shipping weight, but the GT500 mill is nearly 840 pounds (so spot it 70 pounds for a pallet and packing crap and its still 350 pounds heavier than the 3v 4.6) not including plumbing and coolant for the heat exchanger, but I'll go with 300 pounds to give that mosnter another break.


The M6 in the GT500 is 10 pounds heavier than the M5 in the GT (per Tremec's website), brakes I cant see adding that much either. Brakes go from 12.4" to 14" and are around 7-10 pounds heavier per rotor - thats the extra 50 pounds right there (400 pound difference between the GT and GT500 - 300 lbs for engine/SC and 50 pounds for trans and brakes).

Driveshaft may be heavier duty but I dont remeber anything special about it and the diff uses bigger axle bearings compared to the regular GT 8.8 so no weight gain there. Wheels are probalby negligable as well, the GT500 wheels are a 1/2" wider than the 18" GT wheels.


heh, yeah its to bad Ford wont go the same route, a 6+ liter cammer motor would have been REAL nice (hell in 2005 an all aluminum 3v 5.4 would have been REAL nice). but it is what is, Mustang guys will just have to beat on the motor like finding the neighbors dog in the hen house. If Ford actually hits the 400/385 target I suspect there will be a litany of posts talking about how the engine feels soft for that sort of power.

In any event I would dearly love to see a '11 GT and '11 SS with nearly the same power to weight ratio duke it out on a nice track like VIR and at some place like Bud's Creek to see how things would really shake out.

 

Hmm. Your quotes were a little messed up.

Yes.
One more thing, how can the "square peg in round hole" add 50-75 pounds? I would expect about the same weight, but it just wouldn't work that well.
I suppose the round peg will fit in a square hole better?

Well it's heavier than I thought! Maybe it'd be better off with a lightweight 460 (again)

Is that 60 pounds for the pair of heads? So heads and block add up to 170 pounds difference?

They've got to find something to complain about. If the engine comes close to the rumors, it'll make the Mustang a formidable competitor.

On a smooth track, the Mustang will probably win. I don't know Bud's Creek, but I take it that place is not smooth?

 

 

Fuged up the quotes so much of late night editing CZ/28 wasn't the only victim that night.

Yeah, scary huh, an engine roughly the size of a Boss 429 yet only displaces 330 CID and is heavier to boot.

I'm guessing for the pair, I can't remeber where I read the info (MM&FF IIRC), but I can see an extra 30 pounds for each 4v head


I can't say I'm an authority on tracks, but Bud's Creek beat out my usual drag racing venue in both track condition and elevation so it gets win in my book. As for SRA screwing things up, if the Track Pack is anything like the FR3 suspension, it works suprisingly well on a bumpy road, in fact under the same conditions the FR3 car works alot better than the more softly sprung GT suspension.

 

The IRS gets a lot of points from the import and premium crowd. But I still kind of wish the Camaro had gotten the solid axle. I really don't have any complaints with my '02 on that front. But from talking to coworkers, I know that the IRS gets the Camaro lots of points, and they really don't care about the 300 pounds as far as I can tell. The fact that it has 100 more HP and gets the same gas mileage doesn't hurt either.

Though the size of the Challenger is noticed (more like 550 over the Mustang).

 

Lol, IRS - the seven bean salad of the automotive world - it'll cure cancer, give your girl bigger bewbs, and I bet given enough time, IRS will solve global warming! I concede that IRS offers some nice tangible benefits, but IMO its blown way out of proportion. I think the F5 would still have been a stellar car had it been equipped with an SRA, but I suppose its de riguer equipment if you want to be taken seriously by auto mags and enthusiats alike.

 

how much HP would I need on a camaro to run with a 2002 c5 z06 with headers and a tune??? 500? that is my point.

Warranty aside.. Getting the car to 500rwhp isn't that difficult since the LS3 is such a marvel by itself... but what will it accomplish?

It took a SuperSnake with 21+psi boost/race gas and 150 shot of NOS to get a NOSE in front of my father's Z06 with a lousy 450rwhp and in the end my father won the race.

My plan was to get the Camaro brand new 0 miles void warranty and install CAM/Headers and get a nice and/or close to 500rwhp and get all thouse 500HP terminators a good spanking... Then again.. i think that is not going to happen...

Honestly... I would still buy the Camaro over any of its offerings... but I settled for another GM car instead and help the previous owner get into a brand new Z06.

The Camaro came in a sly 200lbs a bit too heavy... Now I still wonder if aftermarket parts would take care of this problem.. Racing seats and a few other goodies...

GM can make this car lighter with a few Z06 treatments on the Z28 and this be finally the perfect camaro EVER. Then again... For what package it has... it has no better offering from the competition.