Not Done Yet: Lutz says 'perhaps' to twin-turbo Camaro
11-19-2009 | 05:36 PM
#46
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Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
Charlie you seem to be assuming the TTV6 wouldn't be available for a few years and possibly not until the 6th gen (based on your Gen V V8 comment). There's no reason to believe a TTV6 couldn't be incorporated sooner, perhaps as soon as MY 2011. Plus packaged with Camaro Dusk-like upgrades in a "executive" model as previously suggested could offset any "price" concerns of the twin-turbos.
I for one think its extremely viable and would sell quite well.
I for one think its extremely viable and would sell quite well.
11-19-2009 | 05:56 PM
#47
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Yea I voted in that poll.. for a V8. I think in your poll the question was what was the TOP engine choice and for an enthusiast website the results are about what I'd expect.
What I'm saying for the TTV6 is that it's not the top choice. I think as long as GM has a V8 in their lineup it should be standard on the Vette and the top choice for the Camaro. However I think a TTV6 would be a great mid line engine. Something in between the base V6 and the V8.
Just think if the TTV6 was available in the Camaro right now for say $29,999 and was rated at 395hp but with mileage closer to the N/A DI V6. I think a lot of L99 buyers and some LS3 buyers could be swayed to a slightly less powerful but better mileage and cheaper TTV6 Camaro. It's a HP and MPG choice in a Pony car that Ford or Dodge don't offer and something that even some enthusiasts would be interested in.
What I'm saying for the TTV6 is that it's not the top choice. I think as long as GM has a V8 in their lineup it should be standard on the Vette and the top choice for the Camaro. However I think a TTV6 would be a great mid line engine. Something in between the base V6 and the V8.
Just think if the TTV6 was available in the Camaro right now for say $29,999 and was rated at 395hp but with mileage closer to the N/A DI V6. I think a lot of L99 buyers and some LS3 buyers could be swayed to a slightly less powerful but better mileage and cheaper TTV6 Camaro. It's a HP and MPG choice in a Pony car that Ford or Dodge don't offer and something that even some enthusiasts would be interested in.
Couple of things though...
Would a turbo V6 in the Zeta Camaro get better FE than an LS3/L99?
If not, would the beancounter rather sell cheaper to build $30K V8's rather than more expensive to build $30K turbo V6's?
The main issue I think here, is the idea that just because a TTV6 may make slightly less power than an LS3, it automatically becomes financially viable to sell at a less than SS price.
Last edited by Z284ever; 11-19-2009 at 06:05 PM.
11-19-2009 | 05:58 PM
#48
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,179
From: Chicagoland IL
Charlie you seem to be assuming the TTV6 wouldn't be available for a few years and possibly not until the 6th gen (based on your Gen V V8 comment). There's no reason to believe a TTV6 couldn't be incorporated sooner, perhaps as soon as MY 2011. Plus packaged with Camaro Dusk-like upgrades in a "executive" model as previously suggested could offset any "price" concerns of the twin-turbos.
I for one think its extremely viable and would sell quite well.
I for one think its extremely viable and would sell quite well.
But...that motor, those wheels, that trim.....would you pay...say...$40K for it?
11-19-2009 | 06:10 PM
#49
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
In all seriousness, for a TTV6 powered Dusk equipped as you described, I'd seriously consider it if the MSRP were around $39,500.
11-19-2009 | 06:48 PM
#50
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Although it's slightly off topic, this car provides a glimpse of just how much performance a TT V6 would get. The (Ford) FPV F6 is quicker than an LS3 HSV... at least in a straight line it is... but around a circuit it's not!
There were some people here who wanted a turbo 4 cyl Camaro not so long ago... but I think a TT V6 would be more in keeping with the Camaro's performance heritage.
A TT V6 would have untapped potential. Bring it on, GM (I know it's already been developed!).
There were some people here who wanted a turbo 4 cyl Camaro not so long ago... but I think a TT V6 would be more in keeping with the Camaro's performance heritage.
A TT V6 would have untapped potential. Bring it on, GM (I know it's already been developed!).
11-19-2009 | 09:49 PM
#51
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
Personally, I'd be all for it - I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Couple of things though...
Would a turbo V6 in the Zeta Camaro get better FE than an LS3/L99?
If not, would the beancounter rather sell cheaper to build $30K V8's rather than more expensive to build $30K turbo V6's?
The main issue I think here, is the idea that just because a TTV6 may make slightly less power than an LS3, it automatically becomes financially viable to sell at a less than SS price.
Couple of things though...
Would a turbo V6 in the Zeta Camaro get better FE than an LS3/L99?
If not, would the beancounter rather sell cheaper to build $30K V8's rather than more expensive to build $30K turbo V6's?
The main issue I think here, is the idea that just because a TTV6 may make slightly less power than an LS3, it automatically becomes financially viable to sell at a less than SS price.
Now I highly doubt that the 425hp Jay Leno car gets much better fuel economy than the L99 but for mass sales I'd think GM would pull the power down a bit.
Costs are going to be an issue. That's why I think for this to work GM would need to spread out the engine and development cost with Caddy for the CTS/ATS.
GM could go so far as to make the engine a cost option available to any 1-2LT Camaro.
11-20-2009 | 06:10 PM
#53
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
Press release
Inspired by the style of young, urban professionals, the Camaro Dusk concept rolls with a contemporary tuner aesthetic. It is understatedly aggressive looking, with a lowered ride height, new 21-inch wheels, the rear spoiler from an SS model and a custom ground effects package.
“This is a car with an international flair, bringing the Camaro to a place it hasn’t traditionally been,” said Parker. “It is a very tailored look that is stylish and sophisticated, but with a distinct American accent.”
The ground effects package includes a racing-inspired front splitter, rocker extensions and a rear diffuser. They are prototype parts that may enter production as dealer-available accessories at a later date; the same goes for the 21-inch wheels from BBS. Many of the details, such as the taillamp and fog lamp bezels, match the finish of the wheels, lending a more premium look to the car.
The Camaro Dusk’s body is painted Berlin Blue, while the ground effects are painted a contrasting color. Additional performance items include the exhaust system and Brembo brakes from a Camaro SS (with painted calipers). The interior is trimmed in stylish Jet Black and Sedona, with complementing features including footwell lighting, premium door sill plates and other details.
Today’s young professionals expect advanced technology and premium audio options and this concept delivers with a crisp, well-tuned Boston Acoustics sound system, WiFi connectivity and a convenient cradle for an iPhone.
Inspired by the style of young, urban professionals, the Camaro Dusk concept rolls with a contemporary tuner aesthetic. It is understatedly aggressive looking, with a lowered ride height, new 21-inch wheels, the rear spoiler from an SS model and a custom ground effects package.
“This is a car with an international flair, bringing the Camaro to a place it hasn’t traditionally been,” said Parker. “It is a very tailored look that is stylish and sophisticated, but with a distinct American accent.”
The ground effects package includes a racing-inspired front splitter, rocker extensions and a rear diffuser. They are prototype parts that may enter production as dealer-available accessories at a later date; the same goes for the 21-inch wheels from BBS. Many of the details, such as the taillamp and fog lamp bezels, match the finish of the wheels, lending a more premium look to the car.
The Camaro Dusk’s body is painted Berlin Blue, while the ground effects are painted a contrasting color. Additional performance items include the exhaust system and Brembo brakes from a Camaro SS (with painted calipers). The interior is trimmed in stylish Jet Black and Sedona, with complementing features including footwell lighting, premium door sill plates and other details.
Today’s young professionals expect advanced technology and premium audio options and this concept delivers with a crisp, well-tuned Boston Acoustics sound system, WiFi connectivity and a convenient cradle for an iPhone.
11-20-2009 | 10:43 PM
#54
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,801
From: South Bend , IN
I dunno , maybe Im oversimplifying . I took one look at the Dusk , and its basically how I thought the SS should be RIGHT NOW ( as far as trim and wheels )
11-21-2009 | 06:03 AM
#55
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,870
Just think if the TTV6 was available in the Camaro right now for say $29,999 and was rated at 395hp but with mileage closer to the N/A DI V6. I think a lot of L99 buyers and some LS3 buyers could be swayed to a slightly less powerful but better mileage and cheaper TTV6 Camaro.
I'd like to see it as a SE. Something along the lines of the old SVO mustang or TTA. Rumor says that Ford might badge their Ecoboost mustang as a Shelby GT350. Marketing it as a SE low production model might justify the premium.
11-21-2009 | 12:51 PM
#56
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
The TT 3.6 would really be the only exaggerated cost over a SS . The 21" BBS wheels would likely shrink to 20" and Im sure the stock 20's with the midnite silver paint are as costly to produce as a 20" version of the Dusk mesh wheel . The interior would be a more upscale color combo , I mean your not gonna get anymore leather to pleather content than in a reg. SS in a production car .Using the same type of materials as the stock seats , a chamois color seat matrerial with yellow thread should be no more costly than the stock Ebony with silver thread . The silver paint on the interior trim pieces in Dusk looks 500% better than the stock silver , but it shouldnt be much more than the current color . So in the grand scheme , I just dont see where a huge extra cost is ....outside of the TT3.6 and the fabulous looking front lip and side skirts
I dunno , maybe Im oversimplifying . I took one look at the Dusk , and its basically how I thought the SS should be RIGHT NOW ( as far as trim and wheels )
I dunno , maybe Im oversimplifying . I took one look at the Dusk , and its basically how I thought the SS should be RIGHT NOW ( as far as trim and wheels )
11-23-2009 | 02:27 AM
#58
West South Central Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,372
From: Kilgore TX 75662
However, the CTS 3.6L Premium tops out at $57,500 and the CTS-V starts at $62,200 (but tops out over $70k.) Not much room there for this model...
11-23-2009 | 10:59 AM
#59
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Posts: 9,710
From: Oakland, California
11-23-2009 | 11:36 AM
#60
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,173
But this is why I think IF GM were to go forward with the TTV6 they would be on to something. So far your right it's been V8 or power adder V6. And certainly cost has been the major factor in that.
But think about how nice a 400+ hp TTV6 would fit into a CTS or the Alpha for Caddy. That could be a place to split the costs.
I think there is always room in the Camaro lineup for a TTV6. What we don't know right now is how many V8 buyers wanted the power but also wanted a bit more mpg. I think if priced just under the 1SS a TTV6 would be a very attractive choice. Not to mention that some enthusuasts ears perk up when word of GM offering a turbo V6..
But think about how nice a 400+ hp TTV6 would fit into a CTS or the Alpha for Caddy. That could be a place to split the costs.
I think there is always room in the Camaro lineup for a TTV6. What we don't know right now is how many V8 buyers wanted the power but also wanted a bit more mpg. I think if priced just under the 1SS a TTV6 would be a very attractive choice. Not to mention that some enthusuasts ears perk up when word of GM offering a turbo V6..