Its suprisingly easy to work on a 4th gen...for swapping plugs the PIA is the AIR injection, its just in the way and never wants to go back on the right way, ditched that a long time ago. I can see the #8 plug being an issue for some.

Theres more room in a 3rd, but its really all the same thing. I guess the windshield extending over the cowl looks imposing...but the motor is in the same spot. Suspension/mounts/tranny/rear...all normal and pretty simple.

If someone is used to working on 60's, 70's muscle...i think they'll have a lot more to get used to on a 5th, than a 3rd/4th.

 

Ummm, no it doesn't. I had mine up to 75k miles and didn't need to change the plugs. Then for the next owner, he can change them once and then it's good for another 75k to 100k miles. Even if he pays $200 for someone to change them, $200 over the life of the car seems pretty cheap to me.

B

 

No, but why don't you try something else if it didn't work the 1st time? It's not something that you change every 15k miles, it's more like ONCE on most cars...

 

200 to change plugs is acceptable to you? dont know what to tell you other than sounds like a deal breaker to me. sales numbers of Camaro vs mustang during the 4th gen disaster would have you in the minority.

BTW While this is something that burns me up, Scott has said that the 5th gen will be easier to work on than the 4th gen. The windshield doesnt come as far forward. I cant imagine the 5th gens v6 block being as fat or any of the engines being as far back in the firewall.

 

to answer your question it did work the first time. for a few months (about 8 months or so) and it was another tech who did the work. Granted I was ripped off. 200 per O2 sensor and another 200 for labor but thats beside the point. banks 1 and 2 of my 3800 were what was tripping the alert and it knocked the light out for about 8 months. I changed them on my own for $50 a pop from gmparts direct with authentic gm parts two different times after. I also tried Bosch O2 sensors from Autozone for 60 and each time it was a one handed job. each time it only knocked it out for a 2-3 months.

Now I relize my skills may be lacking to do doing the same thing the tech I paid to do the first time did. Also he put in a set of plugs for 200 in labor which I also did about a year later. Before I sold this wonderful machine at 240k miles or so I had a GM dealer put in a set of wires for $200 for the 3rd time since I bought it at 80k miles.

You can say whatever you like about me but I came to HATE that car. I didnt know that O2 sensor problems were so common that there are after market simulators and have seen simulators as suggested fixes in different forum threads as a soloution..

 

$200 if very acceptable to me. Lets do a little math. 100,000 miles, $200. At 15,000 miles traveled per year it would take 6.6 years before you need to change your plugs. $200 over 6.6 years = $30.30 per year, = $2.52 per month, or around 8 cents a day. Or you can say it costs an additional $0.002 per mile to operate the vehicle over 6.6 years.

BUT all of this means that you need to keep the vehicle long enough to get to that point. I don't plan on keeping it for 6 years. I don't even plan on keeping it longer than 2, so I get the oil changes and air filters. Not bad if you ask me.

B

 

The 200 didnt include parts your math doesnt work even if that was the entire bill. Also It was part of a $3k bill. I used him two other times when I needed the car immediately with similarly high bills. Theres just no excuse for the engineering

 

Tell you what. Pull one of those magical 100K plugs, and check the gap (if there's any electrode left). I'll betcha it opens up to .080 or better. You'll be putting a fairly serious strain on your ignition system and not getting a good burn (less power, less milage, more emissions,etc..). I have NEVER seen a plug that kept it's gap for more than 20K miles, and that includes the new platinum/iridium/unobtainium uber plugs.

My whole point with this was not to see how many people could justify the beancounters role in auto manufacture. It was to hopefully get a little hand room in there to make things like this a doable job for either the guy at home, or the poor tech who gets stuck doing it at the dealership for those who choose that route. This is just such a simple thing to make right that would only cost the initial designer, what, 30 minutes on a CAD to figure out? Hell, if they can't spend the money on the design time, I'll do it for them. I can run Pro-E as well as anyone I think..

No excuse, and shame on the QA people who allow it to continue..

 

I don't care what they look like, so long as the car is running when I trade it in, it's good with me.

I can appreciate the fact that many people here want an easier car to work on. I used to do all the work on my car and I have my fair share of knucklebusting slips, but it is more than a 30 CAD job. For the 4th gen, if they wanted to move the engine forward a few inches so you can reach the plugs, it would affect a lot more than most would first think. Is there clearance in front of it to move it an inch or two, would it get too close to the radiator, now you have to change hoses from the radiator, change the length for fuel lines, move motor mounts, drive train length, it moves weight forward so how would that change the ride, moves the transmission so that would move the shifter. If you pull the windshield back to make room you would have the similar problems with the interior and overall look of the car.

BUT, even with all that, I want it to be as easy as possible to work on. It makes for a better car overall if more people talk about how easy it is to work on/mod, and a cheaper car to repair if it needs to go in the shop.

B

 

I can't believe this conversation is going on, right now...
I mean, yeah - the 4th gens in particular are a bit of a pain to work on...but the fact that I'm working on an LT1, LS1 as opposed to some "other" engine the 'bean-counters' could've popped in there, far outweighs any inconveniences.

Plus...uh, have you seen the concept's engine bay? get rid of that showy plastic covering everything up...and put all the accessories (that are currently in the trunk) back up front...that's what we're getting. I'm not trying to be a snot...but really!

 

so an hour for a set a plugs is ruining your day?

if it is maybe you shouldn't even go under the hood.

 

IIRC the SLA suspension up front made the shock towers as large as they are to make room for the upper A-arm...I believe the new 5th gen is going back to 3rd gen style struts which should open up the engine bay.

 

An automakers goal is to sell a vehicle. People will be attracted by price, warranty, looks, etc. I doubt anyone pops the hood looking to see how easy it is to work on a vehicle before they buy it. It would not make much business sense for GM (or any other car company no less) to drastically increase the cost of a vehicle just so the 2nd, 3rd or 4th owner can service it easier.

NOTE:
Don't get me wrong, I like cars that are easy to work on too. However, in todays highly competitive auto industry, manfacturers are tight with their pennies. Engineering for convenient serviceability is possible, but very expensive. These tasks can be completed, but do you really want to pay sigificantly more for a car just so a task takes a little less time

 

I'll repost my thoughts when the question of an access panel for changing the fuel pump came up:


Like others have said, it's all about making money. Not that GM would PURPOSELY make something hard to work on, but what possible incentive would there be to make a car maintnance friendly? From a car manufacturer's point of view, I see none.

 

In all honesty, the first few times I did these changes, it was a major PITA until made the decision to go ahead and remove what was in the way.

IOW, most of these complaints are because people want to go directly to the plugs and not spend the few minutes to remove things like starters and alternators on LT1's and coil packs on LS1's....that and having the right tools for the job.

It doesn't take any longer to remove these items as it does to loose a knuckle of layer of skin trying to shortcut the process.

Working on an LS1 car is LIGHT YEARS ahead of working on an LT1 car, so they are making great strides towards making it easier to work on.