A plea to FbodyFather
10-15-2007 | 10:11 PM
#46
Prominent Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,282
The guys insinuating that I wouldn't have as hard of a time with it if I had a little more experience with changing them are really cracking me up 
Ummm, I've owned/worked on 4th gens for 13 years now, and BELIEVE me the LT1 with stock manifolds was worse than the LS1. I put headers on originally for the plug access ALONE, and have since built three more engines for the 95. My 02 SS is bone stock and shall remain so (other than I'm relocating the coil packs now after this last round of bloody knuckles).
Ummm, I've owned/worked on 4th gens for 13 years now, and BELIEVE me the LT1 with stock manifolds was worse than the LS1. I put headers on originally for the plug access ALONE, and have since built three more engines for the 95. My 02 SS is bone stock and shall remain so (other than I'm relocating the coil packs now after this last round of bloody knuckles).
Some of you guys are missing my point with this whole diatribe though. I want GM to be at the top of the market. I want to be proud of every aspect of the car, not just a great engine and the bang for the buck. All I'm asking for is GM to step up to the plate in the tiniest amount to make this next car a standout. If it has great/decent/good access to the stuff that the manufacturer requires me to maintain, then great! I'm just voicing my desires here with hope that SOMEONE at GM might hear it and some sort of dialog might happen in a design meeting. Probably wishful thinking on my part, but it's there nontheless.
OBTW, the day I pay someone 200 bucks to change the plugs on any of my cars is the day I turn in my man card and go have a nice quiche. 
10-16-2007 | 02:10 AM
#47
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,711
From: The Golden State
We do not get pleasure out of making vehicles a pain to work on. As a matter of fact, a lot of engineers are car enthusiasts themselves. I have cursed at my Camaro a number of times, but shortly thereafter reminded myself that vehicle design is not so simple.
The reality is that vehicle components are designed to be assembled onto the vehicle in methods that are: safe to the workers, resistant to mistakes that can sacrifice quality and can be done in as little time as possible (time is money).
IMO, Many people have unrealisitc expectations from automotive suppliers / corporations. Take your spark plug access compaint for example. By design, the spark plugs do not need to be changed until 100k miles. Most vehicle service is conducted by a trained technician at either a dealership or private shop, because very few people perform their own maintenance. So why should an engineer go through the process of designing an engine bay just so a very small group of car enthusiasts can perform a task in 10 minutes instead of 30 minutes that takes place every 100k miles? Do not get me wrong, I would love easy access to everything under the hood of my car. But, from a design standpoint (assembly and fitment) things just do not always work out the way we would like them to.
The reality is that vehicle components are designed to be assembled onto the vehicle in methods that are: safe to the workers, resistant to mistakes that can sacrifice quality and can be done in as little time as possible (time is money).
IMO, Many people have unrealisitc expectations from automotive suppliers / corporations. Take your spark plug access compaint for example. By design, the spark plugs do not need to be changed until 100k miles. Most vehicle service is conducted by a trained technician at either a dealership or private shop, because very few people perform their own maintenance. So why should an engineer go through the process of designing an engine bay just so a very small group of car enthusiasts can perform a task in 10 minutes instead of 30 minutes that takes place every 100k miles? Do not get me wrong, I would love easy access to everything under the hood of my car. But, from a design standpoint (assembly and fitment) things just do not always work out the way we would like them to.
Spark plugs are on the inner side of the heads, making access a snap.
They actually engineered the engine bay keeping in mind that there are enthusiasts that actually do regularly scheduled maintence themselves.
Ford also actually worked with some aftermarket suppliers to facilitate easy mods.
I'm sure you don't realize this, and I'm also sure it wasn't intended that way, but the answer comes across a bit arrogant in that it basically tells those of us who actually like to do our own regular maintence to go pack sand & take it to a dealer instead.
Sure, there are cost and assembly considerations. But what you are really doing is advocating business for GM's service department to do simple items that we can do ourselves in the back yard in 15 minutes without paying a "Service Technician" $90 an hour. This is much the same misguided answer (given equally innocently, but still telling of the prevailing attitude) that I was once given when I once complained about the weak clutch and crappy power window motors of the 4th gen to a GM official when I had their ear briefly. Their reply (and I'll give it an "A" for honesty) was.... "Some things were made to break".
Sure, the last minute addition of the radical windshield on the 4th gen created a maintence and assembly nightmare. But with a car like the 5th gen Camaro, if it's underhood is close to identical as the 6.0 Holden VE Calais I checked out, then it should be easy to work on. Aussies are car people who still do more of their own basic maintence than we do, and they are doing the Camaro.
But back to the original question, and the answer it got. I feel the answer would have been more accurate, and honest if it had said....:
"The prevailing mindset at General Motors is that they see no point in considering ease of maintence as a criteria, even for cars geared for enthusiasts. The reason is that scheduled maintence has become the bread and butter of the dealership's service department shy of selling parts to other garages. As such, while other automakers may make it easy for owners to maintain their vehicle (and it actually doesn't cost any more or is any more difficult on the assembly line if it's made a consideration from the start), GM doesn't share that view."
It's honset, direct, and doesn't insult enthusiast's intellegence.
Last edited by guionM; 10-16-2007 at 02:21 AM.
10-16-2007 | 03:22 PM
#48
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 123
From: hot lana, Gawja
This more directed to GM in general than to FbodyFather, and concerns maintenance.
Scott - Please do whatever you can to make it easier to service the next Camaro. I mean specifically changing the plugs. I just did this yet again on my 02 SS, and it is an absolute nightmare on a completely stock V8 Camaro. I shouldn't have to lose blood to get it done, and to be perfectly honest, when the new camaro comes out I'm going to take a long look at what the engineers did for us in terms of maintenance. If they screw it up again I'll have to think long and hard before commiting to blowing more saturdays on something this basic.
Sorry for the rant, but this has been on my nerves for YEARS now. It seems as though the engineers take some sort of sick pleasure in making the simplest things total pains in the butt.
Or am I alone on this?
Dave C.
Scott - Please do whatever you can to make it easier to service the next Camaro. I mean specifically changing the plugs. I just did this yet again on my 02 SS, and it is an absolute nightmare on a completely stock V8 Camaro. I shouldn't have to lose blood to get it done, and to be perfectly honest, when the new camaro comes out I'm going to take a long look at what the engineers did for us in terms of maintenance. If they screw it up again I'll have to think long and hard before commiting to blowing more saturdays on something this basic.
Sorry for the rant, but this has been on my nerves for YEARS now. It seems as though the engineers take some sort of sick pleasure in making the simplest things total pains in the butt.
Or am I alone on this?
Dave C.
to change their plugs I will be happy to do it for them for $50. There is nothing to it.
10-16-2007 | 03:30 PM
#49
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,301
From: Detroit, MI USA
I didn't get a chance to read thru this entire thread....but let me say this:
One of the reasons the 4th gen was so hard to work on was the windshield. ( one might chorus in here with 'Duh!' )
The 4th gen was just about completed when a person (who shall go unnamed) (but I'm glad he made the decision) asked "what happened to that great windshield we've been talking about?" -- and the decision was made to put the 68 degree windshield in -- the bad news? The motor was now in a 'cave' of sorts.
Yes -- not much fun to work on -- but a lot of people would say "who cares? I like the look!"
The new car is easier to work on.
Your plea has been addressed!
One of the reasons the 4th gen was so hard to work on was the windshield. ( one might chorus in here with 'Duh!' )
The 4th gen was just about completed when a person (who shall go unnamed) (but I'm glad he made the decision) asked "what happened to that great windshield we've been talking about?" -- and the decision was made to put the 68 degree windshield in -- the bad news? The motor was now in a 'cave' of sorts.
Yes -- not much fun to work on -- but a lot of people would say "who cares? I like the look!"
The new car is easier to work on.
Your plea has been addressed!
10-17-2007 | 12:20 AM
#50
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 535
From: Gotham City
I have a magazine from Car and Driver that talks about the 4th gens conception, the entire magazine was about it and it states(its been a while since I've read it) that some executives didn't want the rakish glass but when shown a clay model with and without it, they see that it needs it for proportions sake, like the designers were advocating.
10-21-2007 | 01:14 PM
#52
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,801
From: South Bend , IN
I really dont find the 4th gen all that hard to work , maybe Im ammune since Ive had so many disassembled over the last 15 years . Like Doug said , if u take the time to remove some things .
Peek into a GTO or G8 engine bay , while it wont be a crystal ball ....it will be a good indicator or basic idea of the layout in the new Camaro . I looked at several GTO's with the engine covers off at the LSx shootout last weekend , compared to a 4th gen , it looked like breeze to get around in . Things like AC components , power steering are alot more compact , wiring harnesses are less bulky , pcms are MUCH smaller . All should contribute to more user friendly engine bay .
. Like Doug said , if u take the time to remove some things . Peek into a GTO or G8 engine bay , while it wont be a crystal ball ....it will be a good indicator or basic idea of the layout in the new Camaro . I looked at several GTO's with the engine covers off at the LSx shootout last weekend , compared to a 4th gen , it looked like breeze to get around in . Things like AC components , power steering are alot more compact , wiring harnesses are less bulky , pcms are MUCH smaller . All should contribute to more user friendly engine bay .
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; 10-21-2007 at 02:21 PM.
10-21-2007 | 01:52 PM
#53
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,711
From: The Golden State
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but the LS2 and later engines
are quite different from the LS1. The LS1 in my '04 GTO had hoses everywhere the LS2 has so much room around it that I can put my foot alongside the engine and touch the framerails.
As long as GM doens't rake th windshield back too far and have the cowl
come over the engine everything should be fine.
I wish I could post pics so you guys can see that the plugs are readily accessible.
are quite different from the LS1. The LS1 in my '04 GTO had hoses everywhere the LS2 has so much room around it that I can put my foot alongside the engine and touch the framerails.
As long as GM doens't rake th windshield back too far and have the cowl
come over the engine everything should be fine.
I wish I could post pics so you guys can see that the plugs are readily accessible.
2. I don't know why you you mention the GTO when we're talking about the access in a 4th gen Camaro. Hoses (which are easily moved) aren't the issue with Camaro's access. Using a GTO to refute the difficulty in working in Camaro's engine bay is like comparing a Silverado's engine bay to a 4th gen Camaro's. Pop the hood of a LS1 Camaro then compare it to your GTO. 2 entirely different beasts here, bud.
Last edited by guionM; 10-21-2007 at 02:02 PM.
10-21-2007 | 10:02 PM
#54
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 801
From: New York
I'm sure glad that could be addressed and fixed after the car has been designed and built....
10-22-2007 | 11:46 AM
#56
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 145
From: arizona
Thankfully today's cars don't require as much work as older cars, but you figure if there's one car that a guy will work on , it's the Camaro. With the Corvette the owner might be rich enough to have someone work on it for him. Plus if you want to buy a used 4th gen there's the whole thing about getting the engine out for a rebuild.
10-23-2007 | 11:39 AM
#57
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 93
From: Toledo Ohio
Changing plugs/ tighting headers 
and what ever engineer did that should look like this 6 feet under
along time ago
But i will say tubular K member helps alittle bit for doing both so priase that guy who came up with that
and what ever engineer did that should look like this 6 feet under along time agoBut i will say tubular K member helps alittle bit for doing both so priase that guy who came up with that
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