Capn Pete

My build sheet listed the weight of my car (I could dig it up AGAIN if I have to) but let's just say it's around the ~3450 mark, and that's pretty much a FULLY LOADED '02 Z28, with ground effects, T-tops, leather (power seat) as well as power windows and all that other jazz. Only options NOT on my car were traction control (perfect! ) and the 12-disc CD changer. Oh yeah, and that was for an AUTOMATIC.

As it is, my Z28 isn't exactly "light", but I realize there are only so many ways to make a car of this size and stature any lighter.

Chris (96 WS6), you just said a few posts ago "Everybody is mad that the car is going to be too heavy but nobody knows how much it will weigh and aren't willing to put a figure on what an acceptable weight is." ... well, I believe earlier in this thread I referenced the weight of a 4th-gen, and also acknowledged the newer safety requirements, thus came up with a number of 3600 lbs. Is that what I'd "like" it to weigh? Well, no, I'd like it to weigh around ~3400 lbs (because I realize that the Corvette weighs ~3200 lbs, and there's no way in hell a bigger 4-seater can be that light) so I give the car a couple hundred pounds more. But Charlie also gave a number: 3500 lbs. That's pretty optimistic, but I think it's a good TARGET.

At ~3800 lbs, will we be the "best in class"?? Probably. Is that "acceptable"?? NO!!!

......................................on with the show .

Chris 96 WS6

Scott,

I have decided I want mine with an LS9, a Ford 9" Rear end and T-Tops, weight 2999 lbs and I'm not paying a dollar over $24,999!!

What? You can't pull that off? Then I must not be screaming loud enough!!!!



-- I would be bored at work without these boards

Capn Pete

Corvette Coupe: 3243
Corvette Convertible: 3262
Corvette Z06: 3130

The Camaro weigh ~3200 lbs?!?! I WISH!!!! I can only imagine the headache the designers went through to make the Z06 ~100 lbs LIGHTER than the base 'Vette, while adding the power and performance they did...

...hats off to them!!

BUT, if the Camaro team can spend a little more time and money NOW, up front, during the already expensive design phase, and put that kind of effort towards the Camaro, I think they could work some magic and make a lot of us here really happy!

Scott, I believe you when you say that you and everyone on the team KNOWS about the weight. I also agree that space-age materials in/on the Camaro won't make it very affordable. And I also agree that the Camaro can't weigh ~3200 lbs. But I think we've gotta set the target weight LOW, and hope for the best from there. Do you agree that even if we're the "best in class" but it's at ~3800 lbs, that's getting a little bit heavy????? Just say "yes"!

RussStang

And this is why the best in class term can be so deceptive. As Pete said, it could still be best in class at 3800lbs, but 3800lbs is still 3800lbs.

Fbodfather

Well Jon.........I'm not sure exactly what post you're talking about.........but if you can dig it out, perhaps I can comment on it.

I do know that I put out a post a while before the unveil at NAIAS-- I could not come right out and say "hey gang! The Camaro will be at NAIAS!" (well, I could, but that would be a great way to get fired.........and I really DO like what I do.......)

I continually send emails out to a group of about 800 -- and those people send the emails out to their clubs and websites. Yes, the number of emails were much more numerous when we were building the car.

I regularly visit about a dozen Camaro/Firebird sites. (at least 5 times a week) It usually means that it's late at night as my other responsibilities do not allow me to post during business hours. (I'm in a hotel room right now -- thus the timestamp on this post) I do this for many reasons - One is to listen to the customer. Another is to try to educate -- which is extremely frustrating .....but I do it because I try to learn everything I can about this business. After 29 years, I still drive our engineers crazy with questions every time I see them......... Another is that I try to show you that GM does indeed care about you and your thoughts. I freely admit however, that when a particular horse has been beaten to death -- and I responded many times with "WE HEAR YOU" -- I tend to get surly. (perhaps I need more sleep!) (and patience)

Am I full of **** ?
Well, I don't think so.
I did have a bran muffin this morning.........and I DID stay in a Holiday Inn Express one time!

Am I perfect? Not by a long shot! Do I get upset on this site and let a few people have it? Yes. Do I get upset when someone tries to tear the Camaro and Firebird community apart? Boy howdy.

I am the Camaro guru, I guess, at Chevy. If you send something to GM with the name "Camaro' on it, it lands on my desk.
I worked on the Camaro/Corvette team for a number of years. I live, eat, and breathe Camaros. I have since September 10, 1966. I still am working on the Camaro in terms of 'the voice of the customer.' My main job right now is "Manager - Shows and Exhibits - Chevy/Hummer" -- Hummer was added as we continue to downsize.

I continued to beat the Camaro drum, so to speak -- even when the decision was made to put the car on hiatus. I continued to talk to anyone who would listen about the Camaro -- and continued to wear my Camaro shirts and ties -- even tho we weren't building them. (I'm referring to my outfits within the GM Buildings......and yes, I got surly when some unforunate would say 'but Scott, we don't build them anymore.....' (.....ever see fire come out of my eyes and ears and nose and mouth???)

At the end, I was Camaro Product Manager and worked with the Firebird as the Firebird team wound down.

Hope that answers your questions!

Now - to the rest of you...can we all agree to move on assuming that GM knows you're all concerned about weight?

Can we move on knowing that most of the Camaro team owns Camaros and would like the Camaro to be the best ever? ...that it will outperform all the vehicles in its class -- and perhaps many in classes far above it????

Can we try to be friendly to one another?

91_z28_4me

Now that we got that out of the way: What is going to be top dog Z/28 or SS?

[cue Benny Hill music]

BigDarknFast

GuionM may have been off a little on 4gen weight estimation (although I think he was darn close). But regardless of how close GuionM was to the actual LS1 Camaro SS curb weight, folks should keep this point above in mind. It's somewhat apples-oranges to compare the 4gen and 5gen. The 5gen is going to be heavier. But the styling, safety (don't forget, widening a car is one way carmakers are preserving tumblehome angles while also meeting new side crash and rollover specs) and functionality that extra weight enables will be keys to the new car's success, at least with the vast majority of buyers.

Z28Wilson

Scott,

Our intention is not to get you surly.....but ironically, just like you bug engineers and banged the Camaro drum for all those years, some guys are going to bang on the drum of the weight issue.

To you, Camaro was NEVER a dead horse. And that's an awesome thing that can't be appreciated enough. At long last, you got results. Now we're banging a similar drum trying to get results.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, we'll beat this "dead horse" weight thing on you, so you can beat it into the engineers and whoever else will listen. I know you feel passionately about what a Camaro should be....now keep beating it into everyone else at GM!!!

Thanks Scott!

Z284ever

In a word...yes. Or at least stay stable.

Safety standards, more rigidity and added features will add weight.

But the 5th gen will be smaller than the 4th gen.

2009 airbags, will be smaller and lighter (although there will be more of them), than 1993 airbags.

High strength steel, (which is quite abit lighter )...not available in 1993, is now not only available ....it some cases it's nearly the same cost as conventional steel.

Injectable structural foam, not commonly used in 1993, is available and will most certainly be used to strengthen things like roof and A-pillars and more...because it's really cheap, really light and really works.

Titanium, which was true exotica in the auto biz in 1993, now can be found in the structure of grandma's LaCrosse.

In 1993, the Camaro's engine blocks were cast iron, not so for the 5th gen.

The industry norm will be forged alloy wheels (which require less mass), vs the 4th gen's cast.

There's more as well...but that's off the top of my head.

Z284ever

My sentiments as well.

Doug Harden

I still think we're...

Z28Wilson

Could be....but there's no way to preach to the pewsitters (those perhaps within GM who are saying "ok, just do a Camaro--any Camaro--to get them off our backs"), so preaching to Scott is the next best thing.

Now Scott knows how the engineers feel.

Chris 96 WS6

I have to think at this point those pewsitters are in an extremely small minority. Does Scott need to recount for us again how many times this project has stopped and restarted and how many times the dedicated enthusiasts inside GM insisted the car be done right?

I guess I'm at a loss over the lack of faith...

1fastdog

I like my cars to just nudge the scales. One can go very fast with sub 400rwhp if the car is light enouigh to propel.

guionM

From GM's Press release on the 2002 Camaro:
(read: official, no-BS, from-the-factory, internet-fantasy-free, actual curb weight) for the base level (no option) Z28 Camaro hardtop.

5.7 coupe: 3405
5.7 convertible: 3535

Convertible F-bodies are 125 pounds heavier than non-t-tops.

Keeping to the low side of all these estimates:
T-tops are around 15-20. Leather is at least 5. That piping and heavier ram hood for the SS is at least another 10 pounds over a base Z28. The 275 tires and bigger 17" rims on the SS weigh at least another couple of pounds per corner over the standard 245/16s. Automatic transmission, at least 50 pounds (GM quotes 60#.... manuals dont have piping, wires, and most important...a tranny cooler up front).

That's 88 pounds....conservatively. Remember, I'm using the low end of these weight estimates.

And there's still numerous items like alarm, cd changer, etc that add a pound or 2 apiece over the base Z28's 3405 weight.


Most Z28 Camaros came in between the 3450 and 3480 curb weight. If you own a post 2000 Camaro Z28, go check the FROM THE FACTORY weight of your car. You'll most likely be over 3450 pounds unless you were hella stingy with the order list...... and that's if you drained the fuel tank.

Even assuming that Autoweb and others are weighing the car with a full tank of gas (where the 3577 number came from), that still puts a loaded automatic SS T-top at the 3500 mark. Convertible: 3600.


Alot of people mistakenly read the 3325 pound weight of the base model, no optioned, 3800 V6 5 speed and instantly think that's the weight of their LS1 Z28.




http://home.nc.rr.com/clarkotte/2002...ss_release.htm
http://www.autoweb.com/content/resea...andardFeatures
http://www.new-cars.com/2002/chevrol...fications.html