JonCR96Z

Well then they should put warning labels on the bracing that reads "If removed you will die"

Bob Cosby

Well good for you. Personally, I like my "muscle car" to be available with a wide variety of options (not possible these days, unfortunately), safe (the biggest safety issue is that water-based thing ybetween the front seat cushion and the steering wheel), heavy on power and torque (that works much better with less weight - and breaks less - and is more efficient), and looks good (Corvette looks good to me).

Those of us that prefer light wish we didn't have to get an "econobox" to get our fix. Wasn't the case a few years ago.

Then again...I'm not blinded by brand nor intimidated by those that preach it.

Bob

Capn Pete

I didn't come up with "arbitrary benchmarks" out of thin air ... ~3900 lbs is the weight of the Mustang GT500, and ~4200 lbs is the weight of the Challenger concept. "~3600 lbs" is a hopeful thought/compromise for the 5th-gen (it's heavier than the ~3400 lbs of the 4th-gen, but lighter than any of the competition) .

Another car that we can compare to is the '03/'04 Cobra ... ~3700 lbs, and that's with IRS. But the thing with that car is that the IRS was retro-fitted into a car that was normally a live-axle ... so I don't know if there were possibly ways the car could have been made lighter if it was designed with IRS from the get-go??

Anyway, point being, we have actual #'s to compare to (Corvette on the low end, Challenger on the high end) as well as previous generation Camaros. Bearing in mind the safety standards the Camaro must meet, I still think it's fair to have expectations in mind for the weight .

RussStang

You are right. I can't believe I never thought of that. Instead of buying a nimble, rwd car, I can buy a suggish, poor handling fwd econobox. How did I never see it before?

You somehow seem to be implying that your very own opinion of what a muscle car should be is the true one. How exactly do you come to develop your idea as to what the muscle car criteria is?

QATransAm

Some of you guys should just go buy a stang....'i don't care how fast it is, weight isn't an issue...it looks good, and looks fast, no one has to know its slow'

target wieght should be 3500lbs and thats pushing it...if its heavier, its not a muscle car, and certainly not a pony car.

Go ahead, give in guys, tell them you'll still buy it at 4000lbs...cause no one reads this board anymore

Fbodfather

Buttercup........we'll hire you!

I certainly don't mean to come across as abrasive -- I think the point I was -- and continue to try and make is this: We are ALL in violent agreement here!

I guess I get upset when I continually try to tell people that weight is our enemy........we want this Camaro to be the best ever......and we want it to meet the wants and needs of our enthusiasts........the problem is that no sooner do I post that we realize that weight (the lack of) is so crucial to the program -- someone else posts about the car being a pig. The car isn't even out yet and yet people will bash.

I'm sorry, but it just upsets the heck outta me -- esp. when a few people on this board should know better.

Ask Chris and Jason about 'details' -- the day they were at Milford to drive the concept, they were privy to several charts -- and all I'll say is that to anyone outside of this industry, it's unbelievable as to the details that are considered on every one of our products.

You can be assured that we are MORE concerned about weight than anyone on this board. There is a lot at stake here for GM. It's called CAFE.

I'm sorry if I upset you with my post. I certainly didn't intend for it to come across as abrasive -- but rather as a "hey guys.......we hear you......give us a chance."

Now.........all that said..........this is 2006 -- we have no choice but to meet all current and future safety/emissions/CAFE standards that the United States Government deems fit to put forth. We -- that's those car guys and gals at GM -- want the best Camaro ever. We are gonna do everything in our power to get you the car of your dreams. That said -- you have also said "it must be affordable' -- so that rules out titanium body panels!

Please-- Please -- Please -- give us a chance.

Fbodfather

Ah...........the voice of reason!

Thank you, Mr. Harden.

Fbodfather

OK......................

Let's set the record straight here.

The late 4th gen cars were not lightweight.

Yet:

>It's taken Ford how long to come up with a car faster than a stock LS1 based SS?

>Little known fact that I wasn't allowed to talk about: Until the advent of the Z06, a 1LE Camaro SS was faster on a road course (same course, same driver, same conditions) than a Z51 Corvette...............and would put cars costing 3 times as much to shame.............

>the LS1 based cars were CAFE positive --meaning that they affected our CAFE average in a positive manner-- not a negative manner -- meaning they were not gas guzzlers..........

>the LS1 based cars were low emissions vehicles.........

........the biggest problem with them to many was that they were so big in terms of length and width.

If the new Camaro can do EVERYTHING better than a 4th gen.......and soundly trounce everything in it's class --- and cars costing 3 times as much............and provides a thoroughly enjoyable driving experience -- and you're still not happy -- well then, it's a free country. You simply select something else to buy. I hate to say that because I've only ever told two other people to please buy something else.

Perhaps you should give us the opportunity to build the car first.

It does not appear that you want to listen to the simple fact that WE DON'T WANT THE CAR TO BE OVER WEIGHT.

Dave89IROC

I can't believe people are complaining about the 5th gen being a pig, when, as far as I know, we haven't seen any curb weight listings for an 09???



hmmmm........

pickardracing

Seriously?

Wow. Didnt know that one, thats awesome.

And I for one never had a problem with the 4th gen's weight or proportions. I still think the 98+ Camaro is the most beautiful thing ever created by the hand of man. the 93-97 is only a speck of dust behind.

I love driving my brothers 98 Z, and if I could find an affordable M6 LS1 SS, the Mustangs in my sig would mysteriously disappear...

R377

Two things I don't like about that argument. First, you seem to be defining 'safety' as the ability to survive a crash. Me, I'd rather increase my chances of avoiding one in the first place. And a lighter more nimble car is going to increase the chances of you getting out of trouble before it happens. Second, it's a very selfish argument. Your higher mass is increasing your safety directly at the expense of the person you're hitting. I'm not saying you should martyr yourself in an 1600 lb tin can, but I also don't think you should relish having the extra weight to pummel the other guy with either.

Personally I don't care about 5-star safety ratings or having 18 airbags to cocoon me in the event of a crash. I seem to recall that on average it would take 130 years of driving to have an accident serious enough to trigger an airbag. So the odds of needing all this safety equipment are pretty low. I'd rather save the money and the weight. But I know I'm in the minority here and this stuff is needed for a mass marketed car.

eagleknight97

GM could not build a death trap lighter car. The Government has mandates on how safe a new car must be in order to be sold in the US, a death trap probably wouldnt meet those requirements...

guionM

Every once in awhile (usually twice per year), there comes a series of post from someone which after readings not only makes me feel like someone just pulled my brain out through my ears, but forces me to spend the rest of the day comteplating the collective mental state of mankind..... as well as wanting to break into my daddy's liquor cabinet.

Jon.... today's your day. After having been here for over 5 years, trust me Jon, it takes an awful lot of devoted effort to reach the success level you have just reached!


The newest nomination for the
"Lets Leave Guy Completely Flabberghasted Award"


Jon........Although I suspect you have already been in a head trama inducing accident after reading these posts, and would normally at this point use you as a proverbal human pinata, instead, Im so befuddled and stunned that I'm just going to bypass that, simply give you this award....... and go break into that liquor cabinet.

RussStang

I hope this is an accurate statistic, because statistically speaking I should be safe from another accident of this caliber for a long time coming.

RussStang

Just out of curiousity Guy, who else might have reached this level of success you speak of before?