FS3800

just fyi.. since the subject is there.. here's my stance on weight..

have a better horsepower to weight ratio than the competition.. (mustang.. challenger).. that's all i care about..

guionM

We ALL care about weight. There ISN'T a single person that posts on this site who isn't. But what some are demanding here is pure fantasy... or the result of some pretty serious street bought medication.

But it's just crazy and way off base to think that GM engineers simply aren't putting in any effort to keep weight down. If I were a GM engineer, I'd probally be pretty insulted.

EVERY car maker is almost forced to make their cars to weigh as little as possible but they are also forced to be cost effective. Between government crash standards, creature comfort stuff that buyers demand, and things like IRS, large heavy brakes, and cheap high performing V8 drivetrains that Camaro (and Mustang) buyers demand, you simply aren't going to get a 3200 pound car anymore, let alone a 3000 pound one. You couldn't even miracle a car like that today.

If the new Camaro only weighs as much as the 4th gen, everyone should send GM engineers a bouquet of roses, a keg of Heineken, and a lifetime subcription to their favorite mens (or women's) magazine.

The reality is that no amount of complaining you do here today is going to make the next Camaro any lighter than it's going to be in the end, especially if what you're demanding is far off the deep end. GM is going to make the car as light as possible with the materials to make it cost effective to produce, with the level of equptment that buyers want, while meeting all government standards. Period.

My suggestion is that if there exist a brand new, 3200 pound (or whatever featherweight number that's desired), 400 horse, 4 passenger, independant rear suspension, V8 powered, sub $30,000 (hell...or ANY price) coupe, then post it on here, along with how the car maker in question did it.

Here's the chance to put money where the mouth is.

Otherwise, it's all just a bunch of hot air to me.

BigDarknFast

Sure, I'm selfish about my safety. I want the best for me and my family. If another parent chooses to save gas with a lightweight vehicle, due to ignorance of the consequences or to inability to afford the gas, well too bad for them. We live in a free country and thankfully I'm free to choose.

As for needing safety equipment. I've been driving for 31 years... and have seen some really bizarre things in that time. I try to drive defensively and Lord knows I've been lucky many times as well. The fact is though - sometimes it doesn't matter how good, defensive or lucky you are - your luck simply runs out. (Like the time I was sitting, STOPPED, at a light in my 99 Formula... guy ahead of me in his pickup suddenly decides to put it in reverse and BACK UP right into me!). Times like those... I want all the safety gear I can afford. And to heck with lightweight titanium panels.

Z284ever

Guy, the poster said this:

Bob Cosby

Hi Scott,

A couple days ago in this thread, you asked if I read what you wrote. I did. Now I have to ask if you read what I wrote?

Anyway...

Agreed. Who said they were? What "record" needs straightening? My 99 T/A was almost 3700 lbs with me in it. Pretty hefty - even by 99 standards. Then again, when bone stock, my 99 Cobra wasn't far off that mark either.

2003 Cobra. But who cares? What is the relevance? I understand that if you add enough power to something, it will overcome its weight (as it pertains to acceleration). The GT500 is a glaring example of this idea. And its a bloated pig (in my opinion). Everything is pointing towards the Challenger being even worse. Still irrelevant as it pertains to *my* desire is as it pertains to Camaro.

Scott, you've mentioned that on this Forum more than once, so you have been allowed to talk about it for a while. However - let's run with that thought: What was one of the main attributes of the 1LE? And yes, I know there was more than one reason for its handling prowess.

Which is awesome. The LSx is a very efficient powerplant. The best mass-produced performance engine currently available, IMHO. That has nothing to do with the weight of the 5th Gen Camaro, but it is a fine powerplant for sure.

Cool. See above.

Agreed. I had few gripes with my T/A, but one of them was "falling in" and "climbing out". Funny thing is, because of my opinion, I got told on this Forum that I shouldn't bother with a performance car. Whatever.

Can't argue with that statement. And if that is the case, I will.

I'm sorry, but your personall little jab just doesn't affect me much. In my opinion, because I am critical of parts (really just one part) of your product, don't mind stating as much, and aren't swayed by your continued insistance that everything will be just fine, then I am to be.....I don't know....exorcised?

That's too bad Scott. But I'm over it. I'm not going to jump on the nutswinger bandwagon. As I have said earlier (reference "reading what I wrote" above), I'm sure weight is a major concern of yours and your team, and that you are doing what you think is right, based on all the variables and realities that you and others have mentioned. However, if you can't handle some skepticism/criticism about the outcome, then I would suggest putting me on your ignore list.

BTW - I won't make it personal, certainly not intentionally.

One could read this statement to mean "Please feel free to join the masses and sing the praises of this car if want, but if you don't like something about it, wait till we build it before commenting on it".

Please, spare me. I understand that perfectly (said so many times). I've never said nor implied that ya'll wanted the car to be overweight. However, I'm not at all confident that it won't be. You have said nothing substantive to change that. "Keep the Faith" and "we're aware of it" and "WE DON'T WANT THE CAR TO BE OVER WEIGHT" are great statements. But I only have blind faith in one being, and with all due respect, it isn't any executive of a major corporation. And I seriously mean no personal offense.

I will wait and see what it weighs - I have to wait. I have no choice but to do otherwise, as you're not telling. In the meantime, if this subject comes up again (note I've never brought it up), I'll likely comment on it.

Good day.
Bob

guionM

Doubtful he wants the Camaro to weigh as much as a Hummer, so I'm sure he has his limit.

We ALL want a great Camaro.

RussStang

Wow. I can't believe I forgot about him. Just goes to show its been awhile. This of course reminds me of Buickman's contribution to the board.

JonCR96Z

Um, OK. Other than you the only person to even mention '3000 Pounds' is Scott. I don't believe any one is even thinking that its possible to get any where close to that and be reasonably priced.

I personally would be thrilled with a 3600lbs car (of course that would be before I remove the airbags and seatbelts), but the last thing we need is another GTO

And to FbodFather: You think no one is listening when you say you want it to be light. Yet, how many times have reviewers criticized GMs cars over and over again, only for GM to put the same crap in the next car they come out with. I think it just shows everyones enthusiasm in what they are looking for in the new Camaro. And you might need to hear it a couple more times.

What is it exactly that you do? Sorry that I'm not a loyal follower of yours. I read one time that you said at the 2005 NAIAS there would be a couple of things that might hint at the new camaro. I'm still trying to figure out what it was that you were talking about. Of course, you were very vague and maybe you weren't even talking about the Camaro. Maybe you can help me out with that one.

Jon

R377

No no, you misread him. He said he could care less about the final weight. Meaning he cares a great deal, and while it would be possible to care less, he doesn't.

flowmotion

Well, I certainly don't mean to belitte you ... but I was defending your (GM's) position on this. You must have totally misread my post to put me at the brunt of your attack since the point about insurance was exactly the one I was trying to make.

Bob Cosby

Personally, I wouldn't be thrilled, but I would be mildly surprised.

Bob

Doug Harden

So, instead of the constant harping and complaining about something that we don't even have a target number on yet, let's all make a list of the things WE would sacrifice in the name of lighter weight....but safety items are off this list. There's no choice on those.

I'll apologize in advance for my snarky tone, as some will not see the sarcasm in my post and get their panties all wadded up....

Bottom line here is....just what would you propose doing to lighten this car? What would you sacrifice?

If you're going to use the "they should engineer it better" line...as if there's a magic fairy that makes cars lighter...give me your education and occupation credentials...just so we all will know that you aren't just yanking this out of your butt....if you're well qualified, maybe GM will give you a call and replace one of those guys in their ranks who loves heavy cars.

Here's a few items...

How about, instead of a solid HD performance rear center section, we save 20# +/- by building it like the previous glass-jawed 10 bolt?

Then we can leave off the extra 2 speeds of the tranny by going back to a 4 speed? Sure we could save mucho weight there.

ABS? There's 20# right there...

Bigger brakes? Slash another 10 - 30#...

Let's also make the suspension components lighter and smaller. Who needs a big ol' sway bar anyway? Oh sure the car will handle like a flexible flyer, but it'll be lighter!

You want titanium exhaust? You OK with an extra $500.00+ in cost?

What about manual steering? Well, they'd have to pay for engineering two steering systems...add $200.00.....that and only about 10 cars would be sold with it. Same thing with PW, PDL's, AC, PSeats, etc....might have to add a lot more in engineering costs. think any supplier will bid on a system that would only produce 10 - 20 total systems?

You want a lighter body structure? Well, knowing that GM already has considered everything they can to make the car as light as possible...yes I know they have....steel is expensive and heavy, two things you'd be fired for if you didn't look long and hard at them.........then you're saying you're willing to drive a car that won't last until it's paid off before doors start to sag, creaks and groans are built in and in case of a wreck, will fold like a tin can.

Lighter glass? No thanks, $1,500.00 rear windows in the C5 Z06 weren't worth the few #'s they saved.

How about less sound deadening? Oh sure maybe 20-30 people will want this, but hey, it'll save a few #'s! Just put some ear plugs in the glove box.

Less carpet? Those aluminum floor panels in the Lotus Elise are sure fun with wet shoes.

Lighter seats? Sure, but I don't want to sit in fiberglass, vinyl covered racing buckets for 500 miles either...but there might be some areas to look at here.

How about we leave off all the fasteners, ties and wire wrap from the wiring harnesses? Surely there's 5-10# of those on a car. We'll just have to live with shorts and rattles.

Stereos....now there's a place to save weight! Let's go to iPods only! No heavy speakers, wires and amps.....I haven't figured out how to hear sirens and hold conversations with passengers, but hey, it'll save 100# easy!

Dash assy......some Autometer guages in a fiberglass panel oughta' do it. With no sound deadening, we won't be able to hear the rattles anyway.

No tilt steering either guys....surely would save 5# or so.

How's about we only have one tailight per side? No fog lights either.

Make sure the hood / trunk lid are single layered and have no gas struts to hold them up. Broom handles are light!

No under hood or trunk light either....wait a minute...they already lost those on the 4th gen...

Speaking of lights...just give me a dome light...and leave off all those others....I'll get used to fumbling around in the dark to find things...switches, etc...

I don't want no stinkin' console either...just a stick coming out of the floor will be a lighter solution...

Now that I've said all of that...I'll remove my tongue from my cheek and ask you...just WHAT would you give up or do differently than GM?

Seriously........

birdy233

Hello, new to the board and future Camaro owner!! Whew, alot of people went from please Chevy build the Camaro, now those same people want to complain about a car they were begging for. The design team are Camaro lovers just as we are, they designed it, don't you think they want what is best for this car?? They have to figure out what will work in the budget and the manufacturing process. Have some faith and if you don't like what the end product is, don't buy it. They have done pretty good so far or you wouldn't be here now would you? Nothing wrong with adding comments on what you would like to see, just give it time and have faith!

my .02

To the design/build team:

Z284ever

Hey, he said he could(n't....for you R377 ) care less. That includes the weight of a Hummer an M1 Abrams or the USS Nimitz.


Even if it weighs *insert ridiculous number here*, they can just add more power.........right?

Bob Cosby

Hi Doug,

Seriously - I'm not an engineer. I'm not an expert in much of anything. I am a consumer, and enthusiast, and at least a former Sportsman-level Drag Racer. I can't tell you what else GM can/cannot do - for all the reasons I just gave. But even if I was an engineer, I'm also not part of the "team" that is building this car, so anything I would say would be little more than an educated guess. I'll leave that to those that are educated (or think they are), or to those that just want to speculate because.....they just want to speculate. That's ok with me. Why isn't ok with others? Further, why isn't it ok if I (or anyone else) disagrees?

You want to know my honest opinion of threads like this? Some people have a real hard time with a few of us that don't drink the kool-aid that's being put in front of us. Hey, that stuff might end up being the best drink ever made, and I'll end up drinking it myself in a few years. I would LOVE to have to use that kool-aid to wash down the words I was eating.

But for now, color me skeptical (or whatever other adjective someone wants to put on it). Will I wait to see what happens in the end? Sure. Do I have a choice? Does anybody else here have a choice? Those questions are rhetorical, of course. Will I like I what comes out in the end? Perhaps. But its my opinion that I am expressing, and if you, or you, or you, or anybody else doesn't like it - fine. I might not like yours either. That's fine by me. You should know that I'm not trying to make the Camaro sound less than what it is. It is what it is, or what it will be.

I can tell you this...and I'll likely get beat about the proverbial head-and-shoulders for saying it....it is pretty interesting how some folks called the 03/04 Cobra....uh..."heavy" for its time. Now it doesn't matter what the Camaro weighs, as long as arbitrary performance numbers are there. A search of past threads on that subject would make for enlightening reading, I think. Oh, and I thought thought that car was overweight too.

So, when the subject of weight is brought up again (and it will be), it is quite possible that I'll be commenting on it. If you or Scott or whomever else doesn't like my comments.....I don't know what to tell you. Agree to disagree I guess.

Bob

PS...now....if you want to know what I would remove AFTER I bought a car, I can probably come up with a pretty extensive, dteailed list.