Discovery Times channel had an excellent documentary on "Corvette: Remaking an Icon" or something titled like that; it was a great documentary from start to unveiling of the Corvette C6. It was a pretty cool show, I never did get to see the whole thing, always caught it half way through when they were testing it in Germany and here in Michigan. In any case, it gave a pretty good perspective on things. I remember watching it the first time at like 1am and then staying up for 2 more hours because I was too excited about the Camaro coming out and the unveiling and all that.

 

Thanks for getting it back on track. I was sure I wasn't alone in wondering about the details and how that plays out in the real world, particularly GM's real world.

I hope the thread sticks around long enough for someone with intimate knowledge of automotive process engineering and project management experience to shed some light on how things are done today.

The original scenario I proposed was not a statement of fact - rather it was a "what if" statement....a proposal of a best-case-scenario. Theoretically speaking, given all the right variables, what is the quickest GM can conceivably get this car on the road.

And here's another reason why I am asking this question: Toyota seems to be able to get a car to the streets in about 18 months. DCX seems to get the job done fairly quickly as well. Why does it take GM 3 years? Where are GM's bottlenecks? Is it labor? Supply chain? GM internal politics? Leadership?

I too got sucked into the debate of how far along the project was. But again, that's not what the original question was, although Newbiewar has made some great observations regarding the project's status.

 

First post, been lurking for a while, but anyway what about those pics of Holdens in Arizona http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2162654, could they have something to do with the platform. I don't know why they'd be testing Holdens in Arizona, but I don't know, I'm just throwing it out there.

 

No. Nothing from the chassis will be in production till the VE enters production, and then we are only talking about certain drivetrain parts.

Another thing is that suppliers have to develop their own parts to the car within the factory's guidelines. PacerX and a few others here can tell you far more than I can, but the short of it is that bids go out, the winning bid gets the plans and develops the part, the part is tested by the factory in ways we can't even imagine, then certified.

There is no need to start something 24 months out if it's only going to take 18 or less, or if the funds or factory won't be available for some time afterwards, or that the sedan or sedans that will make up the volume of any plant won't be ready that quickly...... of course, this is all just.... speculation.


In different words, that's what I keep being told....... no "winkie club" talk needed.

Ford wasn't rushing the new Mustang to market, and they ran the old Mustang right till it would have been obsolete (fuel tank intregrity standards). GM is putting together the Camaro at a lot more deliberate speed..... but then again, one can say the new Camaro has been in development for at least 4 years and counting.


Redplanet made this exact point some time ago during one of the post autoshow "gatherings". The subject was on the Solstice, and other examples brought up were the SSR and the Thunderbird. If he is aware of the problems related to early showings of upcoming high intrest vehicles, you can bet the farm Chevrolet knows this, and it's probally a good bet GM knows this as well.

Thinking that a Camaro shown in January 2006 won't be out till after January 2009 is (thankfully) by every indication a wrong thought.


Everybody tests in Arizona. From BMW to Hyundai, as well as our own makers. Using the US desert areas in the summer and the Australian outback in the winter, hot weather testing can be done all year.

The MN12 Thunderbird's suspension underwent severe durability testing in Australia's outback, despite never being sold there.


BTW: as far as the undercarriage goes, it's NOT a sigma or CTSv as I think someone mentioned. There are more than one version of the Zeta, and Australia is doing the work on all of them. Though the upper structure is different, the suspension is for all intents the same.

We'll probally have more info in a few weeks (and I expect to hear it if I'm wrong about this) but that undercarrage is what you can expect to see on Camaro.

 

I agree on all of that.

I'm just abit conflicted on the dimensions, since the CAD appears slightly larger than the current GTO.

 

Standard tooling lead time for GM MFD (Metal Fabricating Division) is 52 weeks for body tooling.

If you want expedited tooling from MFD, it's twice as much money and 52 weeks for body tooling.

You've got a year right there no matter which way you cut it.

Fisher Body used to do all the body tooling and production for GM and they once redesigned and retooled an entire body in 6 months... that's the standing world record.

Then, in the mid/late 1980's GM broke up Fisher Body and retired all the the people who actually knew their a$$ from a hole in the ground so that they might replace the cumulative thousands of years of expertise they possessed with a new batch of untrained and inexperienced contract design engineers every three months.

GM hasn't recovered since.

 

So the Camaro will be on a Zeta but not the original Zeta (which I am pretty sure was basically a VE).

 

The Cobalt was done in 19 months.

It can be done.

It seems that the Solstice and SSR took forever.......the problem...again...is that they were concept cars with no plan initially to build them. It took a long time to get a 'green light'...but even then, they were done on a thread of a crew.......so the development time took longer.

It all comes down to Asset allocation........money/people/facilities. If the checkbook were a bottomless pit (as it once was in the 60s....) we could react very quickly........but you may have noticed that the auto industry is in a major hurricane at the moment!

 

The Toyota 18 month thing is always misleading. The trick is, where do you start the clock? There is a ton of work done at Toyota before they start their 18 month clock. They don't sit down with a clean sheet of paper, and 18 months later start shipping new cars to commerce. There is 6-12 months of up front work that occurs before that, with the concept car being just the first part of it.

Toyota might be a little faster than GM on the up front stuff, but GM can match them if you start the clocks evenly (as the Cobalt shows).

-Geoff

 

wow, if they can rush the cobalt in 19 months.. i wouldnt be surprised by a time of around 24 months.. which means it'd be finished by what.. 2008?

i think making MY2007 would be stretching it too close.. unless somehow a lot of work has been done already without anyone knowing outside of GM.. and i dont believe that..

i'm guessing earliest we will see is a late MY2008 release.. but most likely a MY2009

 

Yep. (notice, no "winky" this time).

You aren't the only one who mentioned that record. Which car was that?

 

I noticed that too.

But the rear mufflers...... well....... that's NOT the VE Commodore rear muffler arrangements..... or (lack of) rear overhang.

Lets just say...... that's something new.


Didn't every generation Camaro have a sideways rear muffler or two, save a few years and a few models in the 70s?

 

IIRC, it was when GM "un-downsized" the Eldorado in the late-80s (or was it the Riviera, damn my memory ain't what it used to be) and made it closer to the size its traditional customer base was expecting. Although I think that re-do might have been on the order of 50-odd weeks.

Or maybe Pacer had something else in mind.

 

The old war horse will be in town tonight.

I'll ask him tomorrow.

 

The 82-83 Camaro Z28s had a rear setup somewhat similar to the CZ6 chassis CAD drawings but instead of crossing they ran straight back with the mufflers running longitudinally.