Regarding the Camaro Summit: Ummmm, what the heck?!
05-26-2007 | 06:23 PM
#47
Disciple
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,479
So here's what concerns me. Even with these crippling compromises, I'd say it's a safe bet that a good majority of the attendees feel that their 4th gen is probably the best damned car ever produced. In no way do I want to offend anyone - but lets face it, the 5th gen needs to raise the bar exponentially from that, and have much broader appeal to boot.
05-27-2007 | 01:23 AM
#48
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
From: Cleveland, OH
I have a very serious question for those involved with the group.....
Was build quality and long term reliability addressed at all? Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to say the Camaro must retain all the attributes of a muscle/performance car that made it what it is today. But let's be honest, Camaro was never a "high quality" product. It was fast, handled great, and looked cool. No mention of reliability there, eh?
The old Camaros were all pretty much rattle boxes that required constant maintainance if driven over 100,000 miles. Even up to the very last 4th gen that rolled off the line in 2002. I would sincerely hope that at least some people in the focus group brought these points up to GM, so they don't get the idea that all they have to do is build another cool looking car that handles like it's on rails and sucks you into your seat when you hit the gas without paying attention to whether the dash board lines up with the door pannels or an irritating rattle comes from somewhere inside the dashboard that is impossible to locate.
Reason I ask is if I buy one, I don't plan to just park it in the garage and drive it only on sunny Saturdays. I have loved everything about Camaro, and have always wanted one since I was about 8 years old. But my common sense told me not to buy one in 1999 when I bought a new car because of the reliability issues, and instead I bought a Honda Prelude. Just because I drive a Honda does not mean I don't like Camaros, and the reason I'm here keeping up on it's return is proof of that. I would buy a Camaro in a heart beat if I knew I could rely on it as I have my Prelude which now has 171,600 miles of rattle free, leak free driving. All the accessories still work and the dashboard still lines up with the door pannels.
I hope someone in the group brought up the quality subject.
Was build quality and long term reliability addressed at all? Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to say the Camaro must retain all the attributes of a muscle/performance car that made it what it is today. But let's be honest, Camaro was never a "high quality" product. It was fast, handled great, and looked cool. No mention of reliability there, eh?
The old Camaros were all pretty much rattle boxes that required constant maintainance if driven over 100,000 miles. Even up to the very last 4th gen that rolled off the line in 2002. I would sincerely hope that at least some people in the focus group brought these points up to GM, so they don't get the idea that all they have to do is build another cool looking car that handles like it's on rails and sucks you into your seat when you hit the gas without paying attention to whether the dash board lines up with the door pannels or an irritating rattle comes from somewhere inside the dashboard that is impossible to locate.
Reason I ask is if I buy one, I don't plan to just park it in the garage and drive it only on sunny Saturdays. I have loved everything about Camaro, and have always wanted one since I was about 8 years old. But my common sense told me not to buy one in 1999 when I bought a new car because of the reliability issues, and instead I bought a Honda Prelude. Just because I drive a Honda does not mean I don't like Camaros, and the reason I'm here keeping up on it's return is proof of that. I would buy a Camaro in a heart beat if I knew I could rely on it as I have my Prelude which now has 171,600 miles of rattle free, leak free driving. All the accessories still work and the dashboard still lines up with the door pannels.
I hope someone in the group brought up the quality subject.
05-27-2007 | 07:24 PM
#49
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,232
From: Orlando, FL USA
I have a very serious question for those involved with the group.....
Was build quality and long term reliability addressed at all? Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to say the Camaro must retain all the attributes of a muscle/performance car that made it what it is today. But let's be honest, Camaro was never a "high quality" product. It was fast, handled great, and looked cool. No mention of reliability there, eh?
The old Camaros were all pretty much rattle boxes that required constant maintainance if driven over 100,000 miles. Even up to the very last 4th gen that rolled off the line in 2002. I would sincerely hope that at least some people in the focus group brought these points up to GM, so they don't get the idea that all they have to do is build another cool looking car that handles like it's on rails and sucks you into your seat when you hit the gas without paying attention to whether the dash board lines up with the door pannels or an irritating rattle comes from somewhere inside the dashboard that is impossible to locate.
Reason I ask is if I buy one, I don't plan to just park it in the garage and drive it only on sunny Saturdays. I have loved everything about Camaro, and have always wanted one since I was about 8 years old. But my common sense told me not to buy one in 1999 when I bought a new car because of the reliability issues, and instead I bought a Honda Prelude. Just because I drive a Honda does not mean I don't like Camaros, and the reason I'm here keeping up on it's return is proof of that. I would buy a Camaro in a heart beat if I knew I could rely on it as I have my Prelude which now has 171,600 miles of rattle free, leak free driving. All the accessories still work and the dashboard still lines up with the door pannels.
I hope someone in the group brought up the quality subject.
Was build quality and long term reliability addressed at all? Don't get me wrong, I'll be the first to say the Camaro must retain all the attributes of a muscle/performance car that made it what it is today. But let's be honest, Camaro was never a "high quality" product. It was fast, handled great, and looked cool. No mention of reliability there, eh?
The old Camaros were all pretty much rattle boxes that required constant maintainance if driven over 100,000 miles. Even up to the very last 4th gen that rolled off the line in 2002. I would sincerely hope that at least some people in the focus group brought these points up to GM, so they don't get the idea that all they have to do is build another cool looking car that handles like it's on rails and sucks you into your seat when you hit the gas without paying attention to whether the dash board lines up with the door pannels or an irritating rattle comes from somewhere inside the dashboard that is impossible to locate.
Reason I ask is if I buy one, I don't plan to just park it in the garage and drive it only on sunny Saturdays. I have loved everything about Camaro, and have always wanted one since I was about 8 years old. But my common sense told me not to buy one in 1999 when I bought a new car because of the reliability issues, and instead I bought a Honda Prelude. Just because I drive a Honda does not mean I don't like Camaros, and the reason I'm here keeping up on it's return is proof of that. I would buy a Camaro in a heart beat if I knew I could rely on it as I have my Prelude which now has 171,600 miles of rattle free, leak free driving. All the accessories still work and the dashboard still lines up with the door pannels.
I hope someone in the group brought up the quality subject.
05-28-2007 | 02:48 PM
#50
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,301
From: Detroit, MI USA
05-28-2007 | 02:55 PM
#52
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,301
From: Detroit, MI USA
The competition already has the blueprints on their desk before we even knew it existed.
They ALL know exactly what everyone else is doing.
It's the reason everyone suddenly went retro with muscle cars
at the same time.
Now what would have been unexpected is if the mustang went retro and the camaro went modern.
Everybody steals everyone elses designs. It's the reason the g8 front will look like the BMW, the reason the 350z and cross fire have the same back end designs at the same time, the reason the new vette and viper look closer to eachother in the front then ever before, the reason the new chevy truck has the big front bumper like the ram already had.
Every competitor knows exactly whats coming out and what body lines to steal. Nothing comes out as a surprise. We all know what the camaro will look like, it hardly helps the competition to know it will have the gas cap on the side of the fender as opposed to the top, because in the end we all decided to accent the gas cap ever since the eclipse did it
They ALL know exactly what everyone else is doing.
It's the reason everyone suddenly went retro with muscle cars
at the same time.
Now what would have been unexpected is if the mustang went retro and the camaro went modern.
Everybody steals everyone elses designs. It's the reason the g8 front will look like the BMW, the reason the 350z and cross fire have the same back end designs at the same time, the reason the new vette and viper look closer to eachother in the front then ever before, the reason the new chevy truck has the big front bumper like the ram already had.
Every competitor knows exactly whats coming out and what body lines to steal. Nothing comes out as a surprise. We all know what the camaro will look like, it hardly helps the competition to know it will have the gas cap on the side of the fender as opposed to the top, because in the end we all decided to accent the gas cap ever since the eclipse did it
You are very much mistaken.
05-28-2007 | 03:00 PM
#53
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,301
From: Detroit, MI USA
sorry, all -- been to too many cities in the past week and haven't had a chance to get over here and take a 'look-see' ---
Fastball -- you can be assured that we know about the quality issues. Remember that we have warranty costs that stare at us in the face-- moreover, no manufacturer can afford NOT to put quality at the top of the list. (that's a quick answer, but I'd love to sit and talk with you more about the quality issue some time......it's a rather complex issue, believe it or not...)
Chaz -- trust me -- the people in this summit represented all generations...and while they're Camaro enthusiasts -- none of them have ever felt that they had to hold back when talking to me about the faults of the 4th gen car -- or any other gen for that matter.
The 5th gen will not be a 4th gen.
Period.
Fastball -- you can be assured that we know about the quality issues. Remember that we have warranty costs that stare at us in the face-- moreover, no manufacturer can afford NOT to put quality at the top of the list. (that's a quick answer, but I'd love to sit and talk with you more about the quality issue some time......it's a rather complex issue, believe it or not...)
Chaz -- trust me -- the people in this summit represented all generations...and while they're Camaro enthusiasts -- none of them have ever felt that they had to hold back when talking to me about the faults of the 4th gen car -- or any other gen for that matter.
The 5th gen will not be a 4th gen.
Period.
05-28-2007 | 07:22 PM
#54
Admin Emeritus
Joined: Dec 1997
Posts: 11,157
From: Nashville, TN area
Article, photos, video here:
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523533
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523533
05-28-2007 | 10:35 PM
#55
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 213
From: Cleveland, OH
Fastball -- you can be assured that we know about the quality issues. Remember that we have warranty costs that stare at us in the face-- moreover, no manufacturer can afford NOT to put quality at the top of the list. (that's a quick answer, but I'd love to sit and talk with you more about the quality issue some time......it's a rather complex issue, believe it or not...)
Warranty costs are only for the first 3/36. Very few issues show up in that time by any auto manufacturer. Like I said, I measure a car's reliability and quality by what's going on with it after 100k miles (which is something JD Powers and other ratings groups don't do very often if ever) Some companies would be far less pressed by scrutiny than others at that point.
I have no doubt it's a complex issue. What I do have doubt with is how some companies are so superior in those categories than others. I'd love to hear what you have to say on that.
Last edited by fastball; 05-28-2007 at 10:43 PM.
05-29-2007 | 02:26 AM
#56
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,428
Yes or No question here, if you can answer it.
Question: From what you were asked and not what you know about the past market; do you think GM is trying to develop a hotrod-esque Camaro model, targeting all of the right people (like those who like their car enough to visit a dedicated forum), to drive the v6 sales?
Question: From what you were asked and not what you know about the past market; do you think GM is trying to develop a hotrod-esque Camaro model, targeting all of the right people (like those who like their car enough to visit a dedicated forum), to drive the v6 sales?
05-29-2007 | 11:37 AM
#57
2010 Camaro Moderator/Disciple
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,087
From: Chester, NY
Go sit in one of the new GTOs and let me know how you feel about fit and finish. We're up t0 37,000 rattle free miles in our '04 GTO now.
05-29-2007 | 12:38 PM
#58
Disciple
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 270
From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada (20 min. down the road from the "Shwa"!)
Yes or No question here, if you can answer it.
Question: From what you were asked and not what you know about the past market; do you think GM is trying to develop a hotrod-esque Camaro model, targeting all of the right people (like those who like their car enough to visit a dedicated forum), to drive the v6 sales?
Question: From what you were asked and not what you know about the past market; do you think GM is trying to develop a hotrod-esque Camaro model, targeting all of the right people (like those who like their car enough to visit a dedicated forum), to drive the v6 sales?
05-30-2007 | 10:26 PM
#59
Disciple
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 125
From: Pine Bush, NY USA
Yes or No question here, if you can answer it.
Question: From what you were asked and not what you know about the past market; do you think GM is trying to develop a hotrod-esque Camaro model, targeting all of the right people (like those who like their car enough to visit a dedicated forum), to drive the v6 sales?
Question: From what you were asked and not what you know about the past market; do you think GM is trying to develop a hotrod-esque Camaro model, targeting all of the right people (like those who like their car enough to visit a dedicated forum), to drive the v6 sales?
GM realizes the Camaro needs to be true to it's heritage, ...but also, ...they are well aware that a V6 (ie. economical) version of the car is absolutely necessary and vital to the car's success. To add, ... I further believe (know) that each and every enthusiast at the summit clearly knows the same.
Camaro needs to be affordable and economical, ...yet at the same time, ...have the performance of a Corvette, ...and obviously better than the pony in the other stable. There is a LOT to be considered, ...but with the questions we were asked, ...GM is right on track with regard to this. They know the car needs to perform, ...but also know the V6 model(s) are vital...
Let me just say from personal experience, ...and involvement in the summit: We have been asked in the past, ..."Keep the faith...".
I can honestly say, ...that my level of faith in GM is higher now than ever before...
05-30-2007 | 10:34 PM
#60
ALMIGHTY MEMBER
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 2,301
From: Detroit, MI USA
Thank you for specifically responding to my post. You are the one person on this forum I trust (for more than obvious reasons), and I would absolutely love to sit down and discuss the finer points of properly aligned body pannels, soft touch interior plastics and function buttons, what it takes to make an interior rattle free and STAY rattle free for the life of the vehicle, and zero tollerance dashboard gaps. In other words, quality.
Warranty costs are only for the first 3/36. Very few issues show up in that time by any auto manufacturer. Like I said, I measure a car's reliability and quality by what's going on with it after 100k miles (which is something JD Powers and other ratings groups don't do very often if ever) Some companies would be far less pressed by scrutiny than others at that point.
I have no doubt it's a complex issue. What I do have doubt with is how some companies are so superior in those categories than others. I'd love to hear what you have to say on that.
Warranty costs are only for the first 3/36. Very few issues show up in that time by any auto manufacturer. Like I said, I measure a car's reliability and quality by what's going on with it after 100k miles (which is something JD Powers and other ratings groups don't do very often if ever) Some companies would be far less pressed by scrutiny than others at that point.
I have no doubt it's a complex issue. What I do have doubt with is how some companies are so superior in those categories than others. I'd love to hear what you have to say on that.
Additionally, we constantly test vehicles -- for hundreds of thousands of miles.....and ask the summit attendees about the proving grounds.....esp. the belgian block highway.........