NikiVee

What? the GP was not a replacement for the GTO in 1974. The GP was around since 1962. If any car at all recalled the legacy of the GTO it was for one year only and it was called the CanAm. The 112" wheelbase Lemans was around until 1978 when it go downsized. Up until then you could get a 2 door Lemans with a 455 and 4 speed up to 1974. After the the Lemans could be had with a 455 up until 1977.

stars1010

We had some talk about a Firebird like car similar to this here on the board about a year before the 5th gen concept was shown…..

It would be cool to see a stretched version of Kappa with these characteristics after the
Solstice has made its run…..

While I’d like to see it, in a few years, many hardcore Firebird fans would be quick to call foul like the GTO guys did a few years ago……

If the name Firebird is to ever see the side of a GM car again its going to have to differentiate itself enough away from the Camaro but at the same time find its niche in the market. Then finally please the enthusiast fans. I’d say that’s a pretty tall order.

Never say never though…..just don’t get your hopes up anytime soon…….

guionM

I mentioned in another thread that there are people in GM who see the Kappa as holding the building blocks of a new modern pony car... not that this car would replace the Solstice, nor that this car would be a Solstice or any version of it.... and ESPECIALLY not a car that would be stuffed with a 400+ horse V8 engine.


The Saturn Curve concept was a demonstration of how the process of manufacturing the Kappa chassis could create spinoffs including 4 seat sporty cars. Kappa's hydroformed rails can be made in many variations within the same assembly process cheaply. The various chassis components on the Kappa (suspension, fuel tank, wiring, etc...) would be used, and the vehicle could be made in modest numbers at a good profit and modest investment in manufacturing.

Those of you who think this means stuffing a 400+ horsepower engine in a Solstice chassis are way off base. The idea is to reinvent the pony car, not create a new Corvette. The original Mustang was a sporty fun to drive coupe that was created off of what then was Ford's smallest & cheapest car with it's existing components. A V8 Kappa would require invstments on stronger and more heavy duty Kappa parts. That simply isn't going to happen at least till the car's out & it's proven that there's a market for it (...no, the current Kappa isn't certified for 400 horsepower, no matter what the aftermarket is doing).

Realistically, I'd expect GM to create a reskinned streched wheelbase Solstice coupe with the same Ecotec engines, or at most , this new 300 horse V6 GM is working on IF GM were going to use the Firebird name again. The car would not overlap with Camaro, Solstice, or Corvette, would be reasonably priced, would be profitable in the quanities that Firebird sold at, & would cost little to make.

It's also suspicious that GM not only abandoned the Saturn Curve idea, but even more suspect is that the Solstice coupe is dead. Perhaps someone came up with a better product idea?

But...this whole thing is academic anyway. At best, the idea is about where Camaro was 2 years ago... an idea that has most of the work and planning layed out, but is still a computer program with maybe a Solstice based engineering mule running around for data collection.

guionM

"“No, that’s not something we are planning. We are not going to do that car..."

- Bob Lutz, Chairman of Global Product Development, General Motors Corperation
March 2nd 2006 regarding a question on speculations of a Zeta (Camaro) based Firebird.

I suspect he's probally a better source than internet rumormakers.

(In the same conference he stated that the GTO was a "GO" for 2008, that the Camaro was moving ahead despite being not yet approved, that there would also be a new RWD Impala and Buick Statesman, and was very candid about the problem he was having getting support to import the Holden Ute as a Chevy El Camino)


The vehicle that's going to be built on Camaro's structure is going to be the next GTO.... and Impala... and Monte Carlo.

Camaro's zeta structure is HIGHLY adaptable to various lengths and wheelbases.


Right trivia, wrong car.
Actually, that was the Grand Am.... the 1973 Grand Am... that was planned as the new GTO.

Grand Prix came out in 1964, and adopted that Duesenburg look (and model designation ie: SJ, LJ, etc...) it carried for over 15 years in 1969.

mike24

I like the Idea of the Solstice Coupe(axed ) being a Firebird. It would give buyers more choices, Instead of the same car with a hardtop. There would be another completely different style. I hope Pontiac runs with this.

Hell i like this somewhat positive vibe about the Firebird. (lately)

Last of a Breed

Guy: Do you know is any work has been done in terms of actual engineering or conceptual work for this supposed Kappa based coupe? Or is this something that is being bandied about among a few in GM, and is yet to see any real consideration?

I hope GM goes forward with this because it sure sounds exciting.

Mikes25thAnnTA

Hmm... if the GTO is built off the Camaro and they decided to have a v6 version it'd be kinda fun to see some new Tempest or LeMans cars running around. Tempest/LeMans GXP with a turbo 6?

Though I guess most people interested in the v6 and/or smaller v8 wouldn't like the name to begin with, let alone try to understand why they're named something different.

NikiVee

Your are correct on the GrandAm. It was originally going to be called GTO, but at the last moment the Lemans got that option once again. The GrandAM was billed as an alternative to European touring cars, and was a very attractive car. But I've always thought the the one year only CanAM made a great GTO.



1977 CanAM



1973 GrandAM



Also the GP was introduced in 1962 not 1964.


1962 GrandPrix

guionM

I don't know of any work going on with the car. With GM cramming every resource in getting so many projects on the market within the next 2-3 years, I doubt there's more than a card table of engineers working on something like this right now.

The Saturn Curve concept was a display on how easy it could be done (and to showcase a few throwaway Camaro design ideas). The reason I emphasize "could" is that apparently it became more involved than planned. Word from people who know say the existing Kappa chassis isn't easily adapted to anything else, and would have to be re-engineered. Then there's the fact that there are a number of assembly points on Kappa that need human involvement that would normally be automated.


I can imagine Bob Lutz lobbying for a Kappa Firebird being told something to the effect of :
"Bob.....even though we are working our engineers till they drop like flies trying to get all of your models out in just a couple of years, and we barely have enough money to buy a good dinner, you already got us on board with that damn Camaro and we're putting our heads in a noose by taking a couple of low cost to make, front wheel drive, half million annually selling sedans, investing a ton of money moving them to rear drive and upmarket, then betting the farm that the general public who as a whole think RWD=Death in rain or snow are going to buy just as many of these things....... and now you want us to do... WHAT?!!!.....

......Bob...... don't you think you're getting a little old for this job???"

I think that would be considered an uphill battle.... but then again.... so was Camaro.

Last of a Breed

Ok thanks Guy. Well hopefully something will come to fruition with this kappa based coupe. Sounds like it would be a fun car to drive.

guionM

1962. I should have known that.


Believe it or not, in the dark corners of my storage there's a book I read that actually goes into detail about this.

For those that might be intrested in stuff like this, in the early 70s, Pontiac got a general manager (don't recall his name) who can be said single handedly killed the GTO..... a shock to some of you: it wasn't emissions or fuel standards.

When GM was redesigning their G-body, late in the program this new Pontiac general manager came in. Pontiac had created this simply awesome GTO. Instead of being just a quarter mile champ, the car handled phenomonally well (for the time), had the high powered 455SD, has unique looks including an expansion of the "Endura" bumper (early dent free plastic) and would have most certainly raised the bar on muscle cars.

Pontiac's new gm got there too late to actually kill the project, but he did rip it to shreads. The 455SD was removed fcrom the program & went only to the Firebird Trans Am. This GTO became the Grand Am. In one positive move, the Grand Am (which was to be primarily a sedan) was also made into a coupe, and sold well above predictions.

You can plainly see how the GTO was nearly killed off in the 1973 version. Outside of the small fake hood air ducts and about 5 feet of colored tape, the GTO was nothing more than a base LeMans coupe. Even the identical 455 engine was available in LeMans station wagons.

The GTO was moved to the Ventura for '74 in an attempt to get into the "new" muscle car era that included the Nova SS, the Duster and Demon 360 (later the Road Runner & Aspen R/T), but that fizzled out under Pontiac's Trans Am's fast growing popularity (and that Pontiac's gm wanted Pontiac to focus on sophistication...... sounds familiar? )


As for the Can Am, it was Pontiac's attempt to backtrack on the GTO (and take advantage of the T/A's popularity). For some reason, Pontiac treated the GTO name like it contained the plague. However, that was probally part of a GM-wide distancing from famed performance names to avoid insurence surcharges (the REAL reason muscle cars died out). Chevy ran like the dickens dropping the SS name across the board.

The Chevelle SS became the Laguna S3 (same development history as the GTO.... Chevelle SS was to be a unique model), Nova SS became the Nova Rallye, Camaro SS became Camaro LT. There wasn't a Monza SS (one was planned).

Buttercup

I would LOVE to see a pony car based on the Kappa structure, especially if the Camaro also comes out as bloated as the 'Stang. However calling something V6 powered for the top of the line engine a Firebird is just as blasphemous as calling it a Camaro. Call it something else and leave the Firebird RIP.

2000SilverLS1

Wasn't Saab's AeroX coupe based on Kappa? And by the way, is that machine of beauty going to hit streets? I haven't been able to read too much very often, it was a AWD Turbo V6.

Maximum Bob

I could live with a 300hp 2+2. BUT it would have to weigh only about 3,000lbs. I don't think that G.M. could keep it that light. Also since it would have 300 horses, why not use the LS-4? I know this goes counter to the weight comment but V-8 grunt goes a long way. As long as they could keep it reasonably close to the mark. That way the car would seem like a PROPER Firebird to the fans. And since this would be the top model I think it would be sufficiently different enough from both Camaro & G6 that it wouldn't be stealing sales from either one. And about that SD-455, according to one of the engineers they had a MAJOR problem with making the connecting rods. They had to make 4 sets of rods in order to cobble together 1 usable set. This was why availability was limited to the Firebird Formula & Trans Am. And why it came out so late in the '73 model yr. Summer of the yr. in fact. I think they should have just re-tuned the 455 H.O. for '73 & '74. They probably would have gotten the same 290hp out of it that they got from the 455-SD. And yeah , it was a real shame the GTO didn't get the Grand Am nose.

Buttercup

That would make this Firebird fan happy. It wouldn't need to be a big powerhouse. V8 power on a 2+2 derivative of the Kappa chassis weighing in around 3200 or so would be awesome. No need for an LS7, blower, or anything like that. Just don't make it retro like the Camaro

If the Camaro comes in at 3700 lbs. than the decision for me would be a no brainer. A low-mid 300's hp car that's a couple hundred pounds lighter than the previous LS1 f-bodies would give base C5-like performance. The potential would be fantastic!