I'm not sure why he said that specifically. But you know how he's been saying lately, that Camaro enthusiasts have been bugging him about bringing out a new Camaro, from virtually day one, all the way until now...and we're like a "cult"? Well, guess what?!, I'm one of those guys he's talking about. Since he's saying it in public, I guess it's OK for me to say it now it as well.

You think I spend all my time bitching only on this board about size and weight? No sir, my bitching goes all the way up to the top....without relent!

Who knows, maybe I finally wore good 'ole Bob down. j/k
One thing for sure, when you talk to someone who might not quite "feel the force" in the way that you might want them to, regarding you're fav ponycar, they'll pay just alittle bit more attention when you say I've discussed "X" with BL, and as a matter of fact he agrees with me.

As far as lighter than a 4th gen? That'd be great, but I think I doubt it.

 

I am 6', 185lbs. I have no trouble getting in or out of my car.

Yep, but it goes with the territory. People expect too many things from a car like the Camaro. It would be nice if the doors weren't as long, but the Camaro is not a car someone should be buying if they care about convience.


Maybe its not supposed to be the same, but I actually like how it is (or rather, was). Makes the Camaros and the Corvettes seem like they come from the same breed.


And I would bet 95% of the people on the road don't change their own sparkplugs. If GM needed to jam the engine under the windshield for a better weight distribution, so be it. The 4th gen LS1 f-bodies weight distribuition is 53/47, which isn't too shabby (the LT1 f-bodies were 57/43 I believe). Besides, having a better weight distribution is going to help move the car better in the snow, which would surely please alot of guys and gals who drive these cars all year long (myself included).


I am a young single male, and I have never loaded the car up on grocery, because I rarely go full out grocery shopping. As I said earlier though, someone buying a Camaro isn't likely to be going to be doing years of grocery shopping with it, and if they are they are in for a rude awakening. How many sporty coupes can handle a full load of groceries for the family? Certainly not a Mustang. My sister's Tiberon sure can't. An RSX or a Celica isn't ideal for the job either. The their is one thing I feel the Camaro should not compromise on, it is something like how much you can pack into it. It just isn't that kind of car, and is never going to be a family sedan, minivan, or SUV.


I do like the shape and the interior ergonimics of the 4th gen. Not everyone wants an easy to live with Camaro Taurus either. It is obviously a matter of preference of what each person wants, but you can't please everyone.

Most people usually don't ask me anything about it, but I usually tell them eventually anyway. The hump is stupid, and should have been removed, but it doesn't see to really bother many of my passengers, and I never have to deal with it sitting in the driver's seat.


To close this up, I love the ergonomics of the 4th gen, and the layout of the interior (the horrible quality goes without saying though). Even for the people that have a hard time getting in the car, once they are in everyone always remarks on how comfortable it actually is. The shift linkage and the switchgear is all easily identifable, and well within arm's reach, and I have never had someone in my car who hasn't said how comfortable they think the seats are (don't know about the cloths, but I have the leather seats).

 

There are too many truck/suv owners to even consider "getting out of the car at walmart" a valid argument.

I go grocery shopping in my '99 Z28 every 3 weeks btw, lol.

I dont get the "hump" comment near as much as I get the "this passenger seat doesnt go back as far as the drivers does it?" question.

Want convenience at walmart? Buy an Aveo.

 

Everyone does ask about the hump, but it's more of an oddity than a true problem.

These things are supposed to be F-14s for the road. And with the 4th gen, they brought the canopy and fuselage styling to it's peak - everything below the beltline is body color, everything above is black to blend in with the glass - like the canopy on a jet fighter. That's why it is, and ought to remain, a long, low, pointy car. Everyone who bought a 2nd through 4th gen bought into that brand of style with me, I presume some of them are still around and still want the same thing.

As far as the engine being hard to access - you can't even see the engine of a Porsche Boxter from above, and I don't recall any problems selling those. Do any great number of people really evaluate how hard the dash is to apply protectant to before they buy a car?

I can fit a week's worth of groceries in the Camaro without using the back seat. And the hatchback is a lot easier to load than the mail slot trunk the mustang has had for years and we appear to be getting on the 5th gen.

 

wow ok

I thought I had named some of them several times. The very first thing I would have done is moved the engine forward where you can get to it as was done on the 5th. next I would move the wheels forward also done on the concept. Im just scared GM will revert to those things. I had to drop my Y pipe to change my O2 sensors and plug wires from the bottom. Speaking of which I went out and got Rhino Ramps as was suggested on a forum because of that front overhang. I ended up using a combo of a floor jack to get the car high enough for my metal ramps. I cant stand having to crawl all the way back under that overhang to do something as simple as changing the oil. When I paid the dealer to change plugs when I couldnt get to them, it was about $230 in labor to change the plug wires plus parts. I have the wide 3.8, apparently the 5.7 is easier I take it. With the rake of the glass its areo dynamic but a real pain to clean between the dash and the inside of the windshield. The over extended dash to compensate for the rake of the windshield is right at my knees when I am in the passenger seat. The amazing answer I heard to this was, I dont ride in the passenger seat anyway.

I dont know about your 99 but my 98 was / is hell on my back and my ride to work is 65 miles one way. I can tell you that my 98 where the accelerator pedal is, on more than one occasion my foot would not go to the floor because the tunnel gets wide and stops my shoe. If I twisted my foot I could do it. Also the plastic ducting catches the top of my shoes. Its more than just an annoyance, its dangerous on the times I couldnt get my foot off the accelerator. Yes I have taken my shoes off as a solution at times. There is nothing close to that in my 69. Im 6 3 and the 69 seems more accomadating with head room. When the front and rear 1/4 windows are down, your field of view is much more than that of the 4th gen out of that side window. Im not advocating 1st gen pedal Ebrakes but that ebrake being on the passenger side is a bit much.

Isnt the C5's engine under the hood?

weight distrubution is good on the car and has helped with handleing and snow, and the areo dynamics are some of the best I will give you that. Im not willing to pay the cost of maintaining that design or the pain of maintence again. The greenhouse is 90% glass. Maybe you found a better way but climbing into the car with low seats trying to duck under the glas and up over the extended dash to clean the glass and then go back under there to clean the plastic is annoying. doesnt sound like much until your under there in the center trying to reach it all. 69 btw doesnt take much time at all in comparison. No huge dash/windshield to wedge between.

no Ive never heard of soft sided bags.

I forgot about that thing. I always flipped it up because I didnt think of it as anything that would hold something back. Also it fits into the plastic that hides the spare. I needed the spare and the plastic comes out with that piece so mine wasnt in there for a while. I used the biggest flat head screw driver I could get and still marked those plastic panel fasteners up. Im not a fan of the fasteners and marked up the interior when they got put back in as well. One more thing that could have had a little more thought. Its back together, but the spare is in the shed...

Learn how to hit them at an angle? If I didnt do that I would be scraping it everywhere. I shouldnt have to! Why does this have to be added to the if you want a Camaro you should have to put up with list? Im really glad you love your car, Im just scared GM is going to revert to that.

and Ill give you that when I sit in the car with the seat all the way back it is exactly 2 inches from knees to dash though as long as it is it could be way back off your space. For comparison my 69 is 5 inches knees to dash. with more head room.

 

I totally the get debate over the 4th gen. cars - my '99 T/A WS6 has the same flaws, but I really think that's beside the point of Lutz's statements. The one I'm surprised NO ONE has mentioned is that "Pontiac won't get a version of this car" - I'm paraphrasing, but he didn't say "Firebird is dead", he didn't say "Trans Am is gone", he specifically mentioned that Pontiac would not get a version of the Camaro. THAT is most interesting - don't you guys think?

I mean, it's one thing to stay away from a nameplate. As much as I hate the idea of having to pay to use "Trans Am", I can totally see the negotiations getting really ugly - especially since the Camaro has gotten such a great reception. The owners of "Trans Am" could easily use that as leverage for some cash and that would suck. And just as an aside, I wouldn't do the same thing if I were them. I'd stick with $5/car and consider it free advertising - then use the exposure to rebuild my race series...

But what about Lutz's comment, eh? Pontiac not getting a version of the Camaro?? One could define a "version" to be a front engine, rwd, 2+2 coupe off the same platform - which still can stay away from brand engineering. But then, isn't that almost what the GTO is now? If GTO is off a different platform, what in GM's stable could they use? And why? Why not use the same platform and save a buck? Worse yet, does this mean that Pontiac's halo is the Solstice only?? I like the car, but c'mon, it's hardly a halo on caliber of Camaro.......so what's Lutz up to? I don't think anyone seriously believes him anymore, I mean, Camaro was SO dead for SO long and then Poof - it's the car he's wanted to build since day one?? Huh?? So I think Lutz (wisely) believes in corporate disinformation to keep as many people in the dark as possible. But while I applaud the strategy, I can't figure out why he'd try to distance Pontiac from the buzz that is Camaro....... Btw, sorry for the long post.....

 

The point is a lot of compromises were made for enthusiast. And if every enthusiast out there bought two 5thgens, there still wouldn't be a business case for GM building it.

There has to be a V6 Camaro and it has to be usable. Weird *** bulges and **** in strange places on the interior didn't cut it then, and certainly won't now.

Thats all I'm saying.

 

First off for the 4th gen debate. All of the negativity that is draw to the car is what I liked about it. Its low sleek shape. How I sat in the car. It made me feel more like I was in a sports car. Once I drove from Idaho to Kansas in one day and it wasn't the least bit uncomfortable. I'm 6'2" and the only time my foot got hung up near the pedals was when I had my work boots on (size 12). Any other shoe was fine. If you want a car that's going to be completely compatable in daily life then this isn't the car for you. It's a sports car. It's not meant to go and get all of your groceries. The car is meant for spirited driving.
Now for the Firebird never coming back. I personally don't think that we will get one because of the GTO but I also can't fully accept BL's word on it either. Wasn't he the one that said something about "if you are going to wait for something more powerful than the current Z06 then you are going to be waiting for a long time." He also discredited the Blue Devil if I'm not mistaken.
Sorry for the rambling.....lot of information being debated.

 

I dont mean to disrespect any Pontiac gearheads.....

But, am I the only one with a kinda "heck with a firebird, just get this Camaro rolling!" attitude??

And seriously, I really dont care about the future of Firebird. I s that bad? I think it is...

 

Though the 4th gen was probally one of the heaviest Camaros (seems it regained all the weight it lost in '82), I very seriously doubt the 5th gen is lighter.

Even the comparitively small Infinity G35 coupe weighs 3500 pounds!

No you weren't.

You were told Camaro was on "Hiatus".

How about having a car where you sit in instead of drop in?

Seats have come a little ways in comfort in over that 31 years. Compare getting in and out of a Mustang to a Camaro.

The problem exactly.

Again, exactly the problem. [NO ONE should have to figure out a way to do something simple. These cars need to be friendly to do it yourselfers.

As for shoving the motor under the windshield, this was done because at the last minute, it was decided that that windshield was a MUST HAVE after the entire car was done. The base of the windshield was moved out over the motor. This windshield was the most boneheaded, stupid, miraculously dumb thing that was done to the 4th gen.

That windshield is also exacty THE reason why the F-body could not pass new occupant safety standards, despite having a 4 and 5 star crash rating, and had to be killed off no later than September 1st 2002.

BTW: There's a section on that damn windshield in the book "All Corvettes are Red".

Always folded the rear seats down and put them back there, myself.

Those long overhangs are not hot. They are annoying. I scrape coming out of driveways, I scrape on California drainage dips, I scrape on half the speed bumps. God forbid if someone scraped on on a test drive. Instant lost sale.

I'm a Camaro guy as well, owning 3 4th gens and a 1st gen over the years. I was also rabid Firebird Trans Am enthusiast in the late 70s.

I like the 4th gen Camaro, but it's not a car I prefer to use every day. I find myself using my Thunderbird and previously my Mustangs as daily drivers, saving the Camaro for trips where I'm not bouncing in and out alot. I can see where people would walk away from F-bodies and run to Mustang. It's a fun to drive, easy to live with, and easy fo modify car (not to metntion that changing the spark plugs is a snap!).

Also, although I can see an instance where Firebird could return (if the coupe market explodes to at least 1980s levels and sustains it), again, it's a complete delusion to ever expect to see the Trans Am name on a Pontiac again. Say SCCA charges $200 per car for the Trans Am name, and Pontiac sells 20,000 Trans Ams per year. Thats $4,000,000 as in million per year.

Every person who'll talk on the subject will tell you "never say never" on Firebird because market conditions change, but will tell you the "bird's" days have passed. But ask about Trans Am, and to a person they'll tell you GM isn't going to pay for that name anymore.

 

I guess I was just upset that these are not issues that you always had to put up with. Knowing what I know now, I would have chosen something else. Im 6'3" your boots catch so at least you know what Im talking about. It doesnt happen all the time. The list of if you buy a toy you put up with was getting kinda long.

Im really happy with the wait and see attitude. I like the GTO being slightly different, but whatever works. A Solstice V8 coupe would have made a good Firebird, I think, or even a good Solstice muscle car.

 

I'm 6' 225# and never had a problem getting into or out of my 2002 Camaro when I had it.

Grocery shopping wasn't a problem at all, the trunk held plenty. And if I needed more room I'd utilize the back seats as well. I mean, who's going out grocery shopping with 4 people?

I always got asked about the 'hump'. But I never understood it. Who cares? Who puts their feet up that close to the seat? I always have mine extended, thus the hump was a complete nonentity for me in the passengers seat. And when I did put my foot up there on occasion, again, who cares? It wasn't a big deal. It's not like you had to SIT on the hump.

Regarding the supposed 'convenience' of the Aveo at Wal Mart? Unfortunately, I now drive one of those cursed put put mobiles (LOL Ok, it's not THAT bad a little car, but it's no Camaro.) and it's not all that more convenient than the Camaro was. Rear seats don't have much more room, and that 'more room' is maybe an inch or two of legroom only.

Only thing more 'convenient' is the four doors for passengers (I hope I never own another 4 door car, I hate it) and the shorter doors. But, as someone mentioned somewhere before, when the front windows are down on those short doors I get blasted in the head with air. Gimme the 4th Gen's long doors and windows that actually channeled the wind BEHIND me. Not to mention, setting your arm on the windowsill when the glass is down isn't as comfortable when you have the back of the door so close to you.

Some complaints I hear about the 4th Gens are the things I liked about them... Gimme long doors anyday.

 

That cost is passed along to customers and included in the price of the car. Its not like it ends up costing GM any money---just upfront and they will earn it back with sales.

 

I see a lot of complaints about the front of the 4th Gen's scraping all the time.

I had mine for 3 years and rarely scraped on anything. There were a few steep inclines I had to take at an angle (even one at my bank that I refused to even attempt with my previous 2000 S10 Xtreme), but nothing to make me hate the long overhang.

Only thing that would scrape a little more often was that piece that hangs beneath the front end, but I wasn't overly concerned if that got scratched. But even that wasn't all the time.

 

What about a solstice coupe type muscle car, Firebird replacement?